kalenjordan · September 17, 2021 16:48
diff --git a/magetalk 228 captions b/magetalk 228 captions
 0:00:01.760,0:00:09.600
 um trying to not use profanity um but um oh we 
 appreciate that yeah we like our clean rating

 0:00:09.600,0:00:14.880
 on me on mage talk we we don't want to lose our 
 clean reading i mean phillip because it's like

 0:00:14.880,0:00:20.320
 a sailor when i like like when i talk before you 
 press record it's it's bleep this and bleep that

 0:00:20.320,0:00:29.840
 does i mean all he does is just every second word 
 yeah he's cussing like a like a sailor a sailor

 0:00:40.000,0:00:43.840
 the guy the guy tweets one tweet

 0:00:50.000,0:00:57.840
 that's he takes that twenty thousand dollar check 
 to the bank done bang next one daddy daddy daddy

 0:01:04.880,0:01:07.200
 that's the real reason you 
 stayed so long in costa rica

 0:01:08.800,0:01:15.360
 this is true yeah just um yeah too much like it's 
 a tax play he's he's like trying to he's he's

 0:01:15.360,0:01:21.840
 like trying to optimize his tax in situations 
 like how if i live three months of the year in

 0:01:21.840,0:01:27.360
 in costa rica and four months of the year and 
 somewhere else do i have to pay taxes that's the

 0:01:27.360,0:01:35.200
 question you get into bitcoin you get you get some 
 time in latin america and you really start working

 0:01:35.200,0:01:42.480
 on that tax bill i knew i missed something 
 you go and stay in like the the world's most

 0:01:42.480,0:01:49.760
 ecological country like australia first country 
 worldwide that was going to be uh carbon neutral

 0:01:49.760,0:01:56.960
 you're gonna stay there yeah and you're gonna 
 spend all your money burning the whole planet

 0:01:56.960,0:02:03.200
 down with your cryptocurrency it's it's bizarre 
 on so many levels literally the last like

 0:02:03.200,0:02:12.320
 five days in costa rica i just got wildly into 
 bitcoin like listening to like hours of podcasts

 0:02:14.240,0:02:20.080
 and then they send them back they're like uh 
 america can you take this guy back please please

 0:02:20.080,0:02:27.280
 get this guy get this guy off our hands you 
 are single-handedly killing their uh co2 yeah

 0:02:27.280,0:02:36.720
 neutrality yeah is it um the carbon neutrality 
 isn't uh greenland uh don't they run

 0:02:36.720,0:02:44.240
 or um is it greenland what is that country that 
 runs off of underground heat they have i see

 0:02:47.120,0:02:56.320
 i'm such a cave what's that yeah is that aren't 
 they like 100 geothermal and wouldn't it be

 0:02:56.320,0:03:01.680
 great if we could just repurpose all that useful 
 energy into you know just useless transactions

 0:03:01.680,0:03:08.240
 on the blockchain that has a theoretical value 
 that we've all agreed to might be great you know

 0:03:08.240,0:03:15.920
 i i could get into this but unfortunately yeah we 
 really talk about we need to talk about uh who who

 0:03:28.960,0:03:32.640
 i thought you guys saddled this in the last 
 episode we didn't yeah it's been like six

 0:03:32.640,0:03:37.040
 months since the last episode who knows when 
 who knows what he's what's even happening

 0:03:37.680,0:03:43.360
 hiva i would profess to have first-hand knowledge 
 of java but i haven't touched it in months uh and

 0:03:43.360,0:03:50.400
 it was me playing with a github repo that was 
 like not much of anything yeah yeah what do you

 0:03:50.400,0:03:56.400
 got what do you got these days it's it's it's 
 single-handedly like revitalized the entirety

 0:03:56.400,0:04:01.760
 of the magento community or what was left of it 
 villain tell us what's what's good in java land

 0:04:02.720,0:04:09.040
 what's good um well let's call it to start 
 with okay otherwise we'll offend the fins

 0:04:12.240,0:04:16.000
 they're already offended there's nothing more 
 that we could do to offend them they're already

 0:04:16.000,0:04:21.280
 offended but the only thing i need the only thing 
 i i have to know is do you hear people pronounce

 0:04:21.280,0:04:28.080
 it wrong all the time or has everybody yeah you 
 mostly probably you love it okay he's you're not

 0:04:28.080,0:04:33.280
 tired out by it you're gonna correct it correct 
 the record i appreciate that that's i would too

 0:04:33.280,0:04:37.760
 if i was the creator i would correct the record 
 non-stop i think that's i think that's the way

 0:04:37.760,0:04:45.440
 to go i mean i i chose this knowingly that this 
 was going to be an issue for some people um but

 0:04:46.800,0:04:54.080
 um i like the name too much and as i i think 
 explained before there's a marketing there's

 0:04:54.080,0:05:02.080
 there's a marketing game there where i i started 
 marketing um communication marketing and then

 0:05:03.120,0:05:09.760
 one of the first lessons the the more often 
 someone repeats your your brand name the better

 0:05:09.760,0:05:18.480
 it sticks so when you spend a good 30 seconds 
 on the last episode pronouncing high value i was

 0:05:20.480,0:05:31.440
 i was satisfied no um it's um it was a conscious 
 choice i knew and it finishes the the hardest

 0:05:32.080,0:05:37.840
 language i came across having lived there for 
 four years i think i i know about 25 words

 0:05:38.880,0:05:48.800
 still today but um yeah it really resonates 
 with me it means good and undesirable and

 0:05:48.800,0:05:58.720
 uh yeah it's it's it's kind of the soul of what 
 i'm trying to accomplish like it's not it was

 0:05:58.720,0:06:04.000
 someone who thought it was kind of arrogant to 
 say that your company is is good or your product

 0:06:04.000,0:06:09.760
 or you are good which is not the intention 
 or or the soul of what's in there is that

 0:06:10.800,0:06:18.000
 we're drawing trying to do good and trying to 
 craft um the best possible product that we can

 0:06:18.000,0:06:22.560
 and uh have an extra enjoyable experience 
 there and do the best that we can

 0:06:23.120,0:06:33.520
 and we've got so incredibly lazy in and well 
 not lazy but i personally think we we went in

 0:06:33.520,0:06:40.080
 kind of a strange direction uh in the e-commerce 
 technology world or the the web world in in

 0:06:40.080,0:06:49.520
 general and i'm trying to bring back some of that 
 pure old-school hp mouth css performance quality

 0:06:49.520,0:06:58.240
 and um it's incredibly much fun to work with that 
 with those tools and then to enrich that with

 0:06:59.280,0:07:03.600
 tools like javascript instead 
 of starting out with the tool

 0:07:04.320,0:07:12.240
 and starting from the highest possible complexity 
 and the hardest tools you can pick which are the

 0:07:12.240,0:07:19.840
 hardest to optimize for performance i need the 
 most uh the most knowledge to or or the most

 0:07:20.960,0:07:29.360
 skills to actually pull that off well so to to 
 build a really good web shop with javascript

 0:07:29.360,0:07:37.840
 only or a spa or pwa will be pw is not the 
 right term but to pull off a really good spa

 0:07:38.720,0:07:44.560
 a single page application you need money 
 and time and skill people and that's one

 0:07:44.560,0:07:49.600
 percent of the ecommerce world so uh i don't 
 think that should be less than one percent

 0:07:51.440,0:07:54.480
 yeah they don't have money they don't have 
 time and they don't have skilled people

 0:07:54.480,0:07:59.600
 unless you know you kailyn will drop a tweet 
 that'll hire them one it'll make them a cool 25k

 0:08:02.720,0:08:07.920
 i feel like it's the same seven people every 
 three months but that's that's beside the point

 0:08:07.920,0:08:12.560
 we just recycle them that's what i think that's 
 what i actually believe that but we're gonna

 0:08:15.120,0:08:20.320
 feel like he's flipped the same developers seven 
 or eight times easily but i'm gonna it's all right

 0:08:20.320,0:08:25.760
 back to back to villain so it's it is it's only 
 one percent and i think that you know it's a shame

 0:08:25.760,0:08:31.760
 that the this idea of best practice of the way 
 that we deploy e-commerce applications or this

 0:08:31.760,0:08:38.320
 like future casting of the of the way e-commerce 
 uh the trend line of like the style of development

 0:08:38.320,0:08:45.680
 uh for div for deploying well any application 
 never mind ecommerce but you know it's like oh i'm

 0:08:45.680,0:08:52.640
 building a simple website like i should definitely 
 build that in 95 javascript um that makes perfect

 0:08:52.640,0:08:59.360
 sense um i think that that's been a mistake 
 that you know has led to more harm than good

 0:08:59.360,0:09:05.360
 um and yeah so so so that for you was that just 
 first principles it was like let's start with

 0:09:05.920,0:09:11.040
 like why like you know what what makes a 
 good developer experience and an enjoyable

 0:09:11.040,0:09:18.000
 developer experience that solves problems 
 that we all have that kind of the yeah well

 0:09:18.000,0:09:25.680
 first of all um this this was all by accident so 
 to say i built a tool for myself i i was going to

 0:09:25.680,0:09:36.240
 build a webshop for my wife and that still didn't 
 happen um husband of the year classic developer

 0:09:37.040,0:09:43.680
 i needed to do this so i built a framework built 
 an entire ecosystem recorded 19 podcasts yeah i

 0:09:43.680,0:09:48.480
 haven't i haven't uh done that yet also by 
 the way honey we're not going on vacation

 0:09:48.480,0:09:52.400
 uh tomorrow because i have to ship something 
 so we're gonna go on vacation two days from now

 0:09:53.280,0:09:58.320
 yeah sorry go ahead go ahead go ahead go ahead so 
 you're gonna build something for your wife i love

 0:09:58.320,0:10:05.840
 that this came out of a use case that you had this 
 is great well i battled the front-end framework

 0:10:06.720,0:10:14.160
 the default magento framework um for for 
 the magenta 2 front-end for five years

 0:10:14.160,0:10:20.400
 um the last two years specifically on 
 performance i know how much time and

 0:10:20.400,0:10:26.960
 money you can sink into that front end to make 
 it perform and it's it's getting harder and

 0:10:28.320,0:10:34.480
 it's it keeps getting harder and one of 
 the reasons is that the tech stack is is uh

 0:10:35.280,0:10:40.560
 outdated and it's there's also already 
 too much javascript in there um and the

 0:10:40.560,0:10:44.960
 way well let's not go into that but that's 
 that's that was let's let's leave that there

 0:10:46.240,0:10:52.240
 and the proposed solution was pwa which 
 would be the holy grail of performance and

 0:10:52.960,0:11:02.880
 developer experience and i haven't seen that 
 in the past years i worked at interginet this

 0:11:04.240,0:11:07.280
 german agency up till the beginning of this year

 0:11:08.880,0:11:18.320
 and shout out to them by the way who made 
 all the whole hoover thing possible um but

 0:11:18.880,0:11:23.920
 i worked mostly the past two years with 
 them to optimize front-end performance

 0:11:23.920,0:11:30.160
 and i've seen there let's write other solutions 
 first he had deity which is now called falcon

 0:11:31.520,0:11:40.000
 based on react then pwa studio came off the ground 
 or got got started and few storefronts came and

 0:11:41.120,0:11:48.000
 some other bit smaller initiatives game and 
 all of those are javascript first um and

 0:11:49.600,0:11:53.520
 integernet is one of the most highly skilled

 0:11:53.520,0:12:01.120
 agencies um they're they're not the largest 
 one but they're very renowned for their

 0:12:01.120,0:12:08.160
 technical capabilities um these guys are brilliant 
 they had the hardest time to adopt to pwa

 0:12:08.880,0:12:17.280
 this javascript first content and i think 
 that's typical for our ecosystem i think um

 0:12:18.800,0:12:25.680
 it takes a special kind of developer that that 
 is able to work with the javascript framework um

 0:12:27.360,0:12:33.200
 they're yeah it's uh i think a lot of union 
 developers now get started in that world they

 0:12:33.200,0:12:43.600
 skip the whole html uh base fundamentals um and 
 just dive straight into these frameworks and you

 0:12:43.600,0:12:51.840
 think it's fantastic the way we thought that flash 
 applications were fantastic 15 years ago um and um

 0:12:55.280,0:13:02.400
 and for me that's not the yeah that's not the kind 
 of the kind of work i want to do and the kind of

 0:13:02.400,0:13:11.680
 system so i want to work with um i like the purity 
 of html css and and uh the added capabilities and

 0:13:11.680,0:13:19.840
 the extra flavor you can put on top of that 
 with javascript to enrich the ux and to help

 0:13:19.840,0:13:27.760
 tackle some accessibility issues that can't be 
 solved with our javascript but in the basis your

 0:13:27.760,0:13:34.400
 browser is capable of doing all these things that 
 these javascript frameworks are letting you do

 0:13:34.400,0:13:40.560
 but without the one to two megabyte of framework 
 that ships with it that you all need to download

 0:13:40.560,0:13:47.200
 before your browser is able to comprehend the code 
 that you're shipping so first it needs to load in

 0:13:47.200,0:13:50.960
 this framework and then your code on top 
 of that and then your browser needs to

 0:13:52.160,0:13:58.320
 find out what everything does and then build you a 
 page and if you just check the html and css with a

 0:13:58.320,0:14:06.320
 bit of javascript your browser ready to go like 
 they can instantly build a page for you um and

 0:14:08.000,0:14:15.200
 yeah to come back to the magento ecosystem um i 
 think we're dealing with at least ninety percent

 0:14:15.200,0:14:23.760
 php developers that um um very highly skilled 
 in backhand i think front end has always been

 0:14:24.320,0:14:31.760
 a bit behind in magenta world and there are some 
 outliners agencies that do really well and from

 0:14:31.760,0:14:42.000
 them um but i think the complexity of e-commerce 
 and and magento has always attracted a technically

 0:14:42.640,0:14:48.480
 skilled back-end developers you can have a lot 
 of overlap that become full stack developers

 0:14:48.480,0:14:52.640
 it will signal some front-end and just the 
 front-end developer always has had a hard time

 0:14:53.200,0:14:58.080
 working with a magento front-end because it 
 gets quite technical very fast and especially

 0:14:58.080,0:15:03.200
 with this these these systems that 
 magenta 2 came with where you need to

 0:15:05.840,0:15:14.960
 everything php xml five javascript frameworks and 
 just to render a checkbox on your checkout page

 0:15:18.480,0:15:26.880
 and so i i was very much living this 
 problem that was my my work life and

 0:15:26.880,0:15:31.360
 then my wife asked me hey can you build me 
 a webshop i was like yeah absolutely but

 0:15:34.480,0:15:42.320
 um i'm trying to not use profanity um but um oh 
 we appreciate that yeah we like our clean rating

 0:15:42.320,0:15:47.600
 on me on mage talk we we don't want to lose 
 our clean reading i mean phillip cuss is like

 0:15:47.600,0:15:53.120
 a sailor when i like like when i talk before you 
 press record it's it's bleep this and bleep that

 0:16:03.120,0:16:06.880
 light comes on i clean up the 
 act he cleans at the act i

 0:16:08.960,0:16:18.000
 this is a family show it's a family this 
 is a family show um so um to rephrase that

 0:16:18.000,0:16:26.080
 in my mind before it before i speak the words 
 um i didn't i wasn't too enthusiastic about

 0:16:26.080,0:16:30.800
 building a magenta to shop in my spare time 
 now i'm just trying to think in my head

 0:16:30.800,0:16:34.880
 what was the cuss word he was trying to 
 say that's all i can think now no not

 0:16:45.440,0:16:50.160
 it is a bleeping web shop i've worked with 
 magento for a deck i was saying that with

 0:16:50.160,0:16:57.440
 magenta one i was like you know freaking mage 
 mail why does it have to rewrite this class

 0:16:57.440,0:17:02.720
 why do i have to come in here and rename this 
 every freaking time friggin mage man what was

 0:17:04.640,0:17:10.640
 i'm not allowed to talk about it never mind yeah 
 class rewrites were fantastic and i'm just gonna

 0:17:11.440,0:17:20.080
 yeah i for one miss them i will say i will say on 
 the record class rewrites worthy because the thing

 0:17:20.080,0:17:26.640
 that built the the empire that is you know now 
 commerce hero that you know you know stands on

 0:17:26.640,0:17:35.840
 on the on the ruins the archaeological ruins of 
 of prior businesses like good good good links

 0:17:36.640,0:17:45.840
 should we and and class rewrites is what paved the 
 way it was the precursor it was like the the three

 0:17:54.080,0:17:59.280
 are all funded by class rewriting it's kind of 
 true i mean when you think about it i if class

 0:17:59.280,0:18:05.360
 rewrites didn't exist there would have been 
 no need to create like a standalone like stack

 0:18:05.360,0:18:11.600
 exchange just for class rewrites like that was the 
 entirety of an entire generation of stack exchange

 0:18:12.880,0:18:19.600
 answers wherein i made my career um i made 
 a career out of answering stack exchange

 0:18:19.600,0:18:24.320
 questions and kailyn made a career out of 
 making money very different career paths

 0:18:27.120,0:18:34.080
 selling my answers uh as product as 
 product like uh roadmap maybe we should

 0:18:34.080,0:18:41.840
 call they ask the question that'll be a hundred 
 dollars yeah and he puts up a tweet 20 grand bang

 0:18:44.480,0:18:50.000
 the hardest part of development is like googling 
 something about magento and still finding magenta

 0:18:50.000,0:18:54.880
 one answers did you do that is the hardest 
 part you're right that literally nobody wants

 0:18:55.440,0:19:01.600
 um and it's kind of amazing i i'm pretty 
 sure you know modius still to this day

 0:19:01.600,0:19:06.960
 gets a hundred thousand points a month just on 
 old magenta one answers and there's you know

 0:19:06.960,0:19:12.080
 we have some people in in the community 
 um who who are keeping it alive too um

 0:19:12.080,0:19:16.480
 with the uh the support of the legacy software 
 so uh who am i to say that that's good or bad

 0:19:17.040,0:19:22.560
 um but when you're so you go to solve this by 
 the way if i could interject something villain

 0:19:22.560,0:19:30.640
 the it's it's really interesting to me to watch 
 this come around full circle 12 years in in

 0:19:30.640,0:19:39.120
 to the magenta world because my very first magento 
 deployment ever was in uh let's say january 2009

 0:19:39.840,0:19:50.640
 and we deployed it as a cart and checkout 
 only um we wrote a module to be able to

 0:19:50.640,0:20:01.520
 uh take an add to cart action from a url and 
 we had a static site and it was the static site

 0:20:01.520,0:20:08.560
 was generated from a zen framework application 
 that we wrote like we've come forward it's still

 0:20:08.560,0:20:15.600
 life and it still scores 100 points and it still 
 gets 100 in the lighthouse that's right uh and and

 0:20:15.600,0:20:20.400
 and you know what's amazing is like we come we we 
 went full circle through a hole like let's create

 0:20:20.400,0:20:24.800
 everything as a javascript application and then 
 oh crap what about server-side rendering you guys

 0:20:24.800,0:20:29.600
 that's important um and then we went full 
 circle back around to static site generation

 0:20:29.600,0:20:35.760
 and you know here we are um talking about it 
 you know handcrafted html all over again um

 0:20:37.200,0:20:43.920
 it's a what a time to be alive it's 
 um it's been neat for me to see like

 0:20:43.920,0:20:52.880
 um people like using uh hula in the wild um that 
 sounds funny to say it like that um that but

 0:20:52.880,0:20:58.000
 like like when when you first had told me about 
 the project villain i was like oh you know cool

 0:20:58.000,0:21:03.200
 like you know people will tell me about things 
 they're working on oh i started this thing cool

 0:21:03.200,0:21:08.080
 cool cool um and i'm always you know i'm always 
 like oh that's great you know hopefully it works

 0:21:08.080,0:21:14.480
 out but nine times out of ten it doesn't really 
 go too far and then you know i'm i'm talking to

 0:21:14.480,0:21:21.360
 developers you know here and there on um as i'm 
 you know doing doing my thing doing what i do

 0:21:22.080,0:21:28.240
 and like i'll hear from somebody who i i don't 
 even know just you know a magento developer

 0:21:28.240,0:21:33.920
 somewhere and they're like they're like yeah like 
 i started using uh hoover and and it's like made

 0:21:33.920,0:21:39.840
 me totally re-energized about my job you know and 
 i talk to people all the time about their jobs and

 0:21:39.840,0:21:44.880
 like having a job that's frustrating working 
 on something that's frustrating sucks a lot of

 0:21:44.880,0:21:49.520
 your energy out you know and i call out like i'm 
 hearing from multiple people going like oh this

 0:21:49.520,0:21:56.000
 has really made me excited again about you know 
 what i do and i'm just like oh i thought this was

 0:21:56.000,0:22:02.640
 just about my buddies like fun little project and 
 it's like it's neat to see how it's developing and

 0:22:02.640,0:22:10.080
 picking up steam and picking up an ecosystem and 
 really like making you know people's lives better

 0:22:10.080,0:22:18.320
 you know in that in that way so um you know how 
 this is how you know when it's become pervasive

 0:22:18.320,0:22:25.840
 is when i start seeing job postings that 
 say 10 years hoover experience required

 0:22:26.560,0:22:31.680
 that's when you know it's reached a critical 
 mass that's where you know there's some marketing

 0:22:31.680,0:22:38.000
 there's some uh ecom director somewhere that was 
 told you gotta go with this and they say we want

 0:22:38.000,0:22:47.600
 10 years of it darn it yeah and yeah a masters 
 of computer science and and 10 years of hoover

 0:22:50.000,0:22:51.120
 i have to wonder why

 0:22:53.520,0:23:02.320
 is there a like theoretically how how tied to uh 
 yeah how how dependent is this on on magento and

 0:23:02.320,0:23:09.440
 the success of magento in the future um i i have 
 to believe that there is you know a case to be

 0:23:09.440,0:23:15.840
 made to simplify other front-end development 
 pipelines and and to have more performance

 0:23:15.840,0:23:21.520
 that's not javascript and headless oriented or 
 headless required um what would say you to that

 0:23:21.520,0:23:28.000
 like what's what's the what's your sense of 
 of the sustainability of magento in into the

 0:23:28.000,0:23:36.160
 future considering that you know the large bulk 
 of magento deployments were open source right um

 0:23:38.080,0:23:43.520
 what's what what's what's your what's your outlook 
 on the sustainability of magento as a product

 0:23:46.560,0:23:52.880
 um then you're talking about 
 the open source monolith

 0:23:56.000,0:23:56.500
 um

 0:23:59.440,0:24:09.280
 yeah this this is of course for us a really 
 really important important topic um and

 0:24:12.480,0:24:23.200
 let me think um we were working on securing that 
 future for us but also for our merchants and the

 0:24:23.200,0:24:36.160
 agencies we work with um and um what can i say 
 we're we're making plans of our own so to say um

 0:24:38.960,0:24:43.120
 we're very much i i am very much 
 hoping that adobe's ready to

 0:24:43.680,0:24:55.200
 um not not too far away in the future um let go 
 of magento as as as an open source product um and

 0:24:57.520,0:25:03.920
 we're talking with the magenta association 
 who has the ambition to take over the platform

 0:25:06.880,0:25:14.000
 i have a lot of ideas of what 
 it would look like to fork

 0:25:14.800,0:25:23.280
 magento and build build a company 
 around that and enable the community to

 0:25:26.880,0:25:29.840
 claim back ownership over 
 the product and be able to

 0:25:31.040,0:25:43.200
 um build on magento again or to build out and 
 um bring bring back a lot of that energy um i'm

 0:25:45.680,0:25:52.240
 i'm not sure if the association 
 has the right tools to do this

 0:25:52.240,0:25:57.600
 because they're dependent on adobe 
 they wouldn't necessarily need to

 0:25:57.600,0:26:03.440
 be dependent on adobe but the current 
 situation is that uh adobe of course um

 0:26:04.480,0:26:12.320
 founded them and funds them for for a 
 large chart for quite a substantial um

 0:26:14.480,0:26:29.120
 part or percentage um so the association is um 
 is left to what adobe adobe thinks is right to

 0:26:29.120,0:26:33.360
 do with with with the platform and it's in 
 there as well and they're right because they

 0:26:33.360,0:26:39.920
 paid a fair amount of money for magento and 
 they're using it in the way that's best for them

 0:26:42.400,0:26:47.600
 it's it's been communicated 
 quite clearly that for them

 0:26:49.760,0:26:57.040
 the future of magento s adobe commerce which 
 is an adobe product which lives in their adobe

 0:26:57.040,0:27:11.600
 ecosystem so how atomic adobe commerce is going to 
 look in one two four years is very different from

 0:27:11.600,0:27:18.240
 what magento looks like uh i i have to interject 
 just two things there real quick i i think that

 0:27:18.800,0:27:25.840
 so you said securing the future right and you said 
 sort of building it back um you said you know kind

 0:27:25.840,0:27:33.120
 of re re reinvigorating the magento you know what 
 what what made magento great and not saying that

 0:27:33.760,0:27:39.120
 better that's what i was going to say he sort of 
 said build back better which is which was you know

 0:27:39.120,0:27:45.840
 papa joe uh was his uh platform i also heard uh 
 make magento great again but that's another thing

 0:27:45.840,0:27:53.680
 um but there's a there was another there was 
 another thing there that i think is sort of the

 0:27:55.040,0:28:01.280
 i'd say it's the association right the association 
 is supposed to be this you know uh run by the

 0:28:01.280,0:28:08.960
 community for the community but there's not like 
 the the the the sustenance like the ability for

 0:28:08.960,0:28:14.320
 the association to sustain itself is actually 
 quite dependent on an influx of dollars that

 0:28:14.320,0:28:20.720
 either comes from partners or from adobe so it's 
 not quite the community and i think that that's

 0:28:20.720,0:28:29.360
 the the sort of conundrum of uh you know the the 
 association or non-profit not not-for-profit model

 0:28:29.360,0:28:35.520
 uh that they adopted which requires like 
 some pretty structured governance that you

 0:28:35.520,0:28:42.320
 know requires a lot of funds um and and that's 
 you know sort of just where we find ourselves

 0:28:42.320,0:28:50.000
 i find it shocking and this is no way of criticism 
 love adobe thank thank god for them uh don't sue

 0:28:50.000,0:28:58.000
 me please um uh but i find it shocking that the 
 company that professes to own creativity of every

 0:28:58.000,0:29:03.600
 kind in every channel the company that powers 
 oscar award-winning films to be made and grammy

 0:29:03.600,0:29:08.960
 award-winning albums to be made and the company 
 that provides you know every every visual piece

 0:29:08.960,0:29:15.600
 of media that you see from film uh and and 
 podcasts and influencer to you know freaking

 0:29:15.600,0:29:20.400
 apps that you run on your phone to make you know 
 social media posts with to like every single part

 0:29:20.400,0:29:26.240
 of creativity in our culture is touched by a piece 
 of software that adobe owns why could this not be

 0:29:26.800,0:29:32.720
 why could we not reimagine magento to be the 
 most creative tool for commerce that exists in

 0:29:32.720,0:29:37.760
 the world it's been three years and you know what 
 we have instead it's the same product that it was

 0:29:37.760,0:29:46.080
 a few years ago with a little extra put on it to 
 kind of you know fix some uh uh i don't know it's

 0:29:46.080,0:29:51.600
 it just doesn't it's it's yeah it's a big it's 
 a big lost opportunity right it's it's it's not

 0:29:51.600,0:29:58.000
 water that's not what their why their focus is um 
 their their focus i think is not in the monolith

 0:29:58.000,0:30:03.840
 their focus is on building everything that 
 you just mentioned like the wildest creativity

 0:30:03.840,0:30:10.240
 will be possible within their suit of products 
 that live in adobe so you'll have adobe products

 0:30:10.240,0:30:17.680
 that give you wild creativity that just deploy 
 something in your pwa app that runs on apis only

 0:30:18.320,0:30:24.480
 um so so that's where their focus is and 
 that's the kind of customers they want to serve

 0:30:25.280,0:30:39.840
 and uh i think the spirit of magento is is what 
 a lot of people um that that formed that spirit

 0:30:39.840,0:30:46.560
 at adobe or magento and then adobe they're not 
 around anymore they've been reincarnated as hoover

 0:30:49.280,0:30:53.600
 that's kind of true that's the excitement today 
 that's where i see the excitement in the community

 0:30:53.600,0:30:59.520
 kaelyn you know you know this you know it's 
 true yeah there is there is a there is a level

 0:30:59.520,0:31:05.920
 you know i you guys are going to hate this but 
 i i see this interesting parallel in the bitcoin

 0:31:06.480,0:31:18.320
 oh my god no in the sense that um with with open 
 source so like all these decentralized protocols

 0:31:18.320,0:31:25.360
 are open source by by nature and um and so there 
 are these thriving open source communities right

 0:31:26.080,0:31:35.520
 and it it actually it's weird it's weird because 
 i feel like in e-commerce to a large extent sas um

 0:31:35.520,0:31:42.800
 well e-commerce on the web in general like sas is 
 kind of like one as a business model for for uh to

 0:31:42.800,0:31:51.600
 a large extent like there's so many issues with um 
 security and it's almost like in some sense like

 0:31:53.200,0:31:59.040
 the open sort like i like i'm thinking back to 
 those earlier days and i think that show me show

 0:31:59.040,0:32:06.640
 me one open source organization that has thrived 
 over a series of decades that didn't have a bdfl

 0:32:06.640,0:32:14.320
 at the helm right why why is laravel as popular 
 as it is is because it has taylor otwell

 0:32:14.320,0:32:20.640
 why is uh tailwind as as prevalent as it 
 is because it has adam wathen right why

 0:32:20.640,0:32:26.160
 is right why did linux become so uh 
 pervasive is because they had linus torvalds

 0:32:26.160,0:32:32.960
 you cannot have a fully decentralized organization 
 that is fully autonomous and flat that ever

 0:32:32.960,0:32:39.280
 gets any amount of work done without becoming 
 infighting and inviting and and tribal amongst

 0:32:39.280,0:32:44.080
 its own core members look what happened to the 
 php working group look what's happened to uh

 0:32:45.360,0:32:52.240
 others that shall not be named like i we have a 
 i think by nature open source is an ideal that

 0:32:52.240,0:32:58.320
 is best applied to people that have extraordinary 
 vision and do you know why hoover is successful is

 0:32:58.320,0:33:01.440
 because we have someone who had extraordinary 
 vision trying to solve a real problem without

 0:33:01.440,0:33:07.680
 having to you know with you know and and created 
 something that like that went out in search of

 0:33:07.680,0:33:15.200
 of of uh solving a problem that exists in the 
 world without having to consult 400 other people's

 0:33:15.200,0:33:19.440
 input including you know people that you know 
 providing capital financing to make it happen

 0:33:19.440,0:33:24.480
 because that's how we had magento 2 come around 
 you know it's like we're trying to gain consensus

 0:33:24.480,0:33:30.480
 nothing great in this world comes about because 
 of extreme consensus right that's that's just

 0:33:30.480,0:33:39.840
 the case right well yeah including bitcoin 
 that's because satoshi i is a godman child who

 0:33:41.760,0:33:46.080
 i think the decentralized consensus thing 
 is really fascinating but i wasn't i wasn't

 0:33:46.080,0:33:52.640
 meaning to to sidetrack with that it was more oh 
 i'm the one who signed us no you go on i'm sorry

 0:33:52.640,0:33:56.320
 no no that was that was that was that was 
 a great point and i think that william

 0:33:56.960,0:34:02.160
 does fall under that category of like 
 when you have an open source project

 0:34:02.160,0:34:09.120
 you need a leader that has a strong 
 vision that's going to lead strongly lead

 0:34:09.120,0:34:14.320
 with strength and clarity um and i think that's 
 that's what you're doing and that's awesome i

 0:34:14.320,0:34:20.160
 just like it's fascinating for me to be dipping my 
 toes into this open source community that's like

 0:34:20.960,0:34:28.720
 that's like seeing tremendous growth and then 
 think and then and i mean right yeah yeah and

 0:34:28.720,0:34:34.720
 like magenta was called no that's a parallel it 
 is actually yeah it is it's a very strong miracle

 0:34:36.160,0:34:44.000
 to me i i actually i actually saw a linkedin post 
 where uh this one person created a profile on the

 0:34:44.000,0:34:48.960
 site they on my site they they wrote this profile 
 like i love magento i mean i've been in love with

 0:34:48.960,0:34:53.760
 magento for 10 years it was very poetic posted it 
 got a lot of interaction this one person replied

 0:34:53.760,0:34:57.760
 and it was like magento is a cult and they're like 
 i hate magento i stopped using it whenever ago

 0:34:58.480,0:35:04.160
 um but it's interesting to me to be comparing 
 sort of the the old days right where the open

 0:35:04.160,0:35:10.320
 source community was kind of thriving arguably 
 it's been in decline in many ways right for

 0:35:10.320,0:35:18.800
 for years and like i think willem is is picking 
 up like it is sort of um uh is making some

 0:35:18.800,0:35:23.040
 progress in an upward direction but like by 
 and large we've been on kind of downward trend

 0:35:23.680,0:35:28.880
 and i think that's due to that sort of 
 just the nature of like sas eating up so

 0:35:28.880,0:35:38.880
 much can i can i can i can i pose a conjecture 
 when when was magento released publicly 2008

 0:35:40.240,0:35:44.480
 yeah let's call 2008 i think 
 it's like august 2008 okay um

 0:35:46.560,0:35:50.400
 when was when was hoova released publicly

 0:35:52.320,0:35:58.960
 has it been has it been a year now two year 
 and a half two years how long has it been

 0:35:58.960,0:36:08.720
 announced announcer launched launched 
 launch february of 21 no this year 2021 wait

 0:36:10.480,0:36:18.560
 okay february so the conjecture the conjecture 
 that i have is um open source goes through

 0:36:19.920,0:36:26.640
 open source adoption goes through cycles 
 that map very nicely to economic distress

 0:36:27.760,0:36:34.000
 i i think that economic distress causes 
 a high rate of adoption and interest in

 0:36:34.000,0:36:38.400
 open source because you have people that 
 are changing careers people that become

 0:36:38.400,0:36:43.200
 aspirational about things that they're 
 impassioned projects that they're adopting

 0:36:43.760,0:36:50.400
 so you have a huge influx of of uh interest in a 
 community right then you have people um that are

 0:36:51.040,0:36:56.560
 uh just like just being very honest like how 
 do you cut licensing and software costs at

 0:36:56.560,0:37:00.400
 a corporate level in a time where your 
 profits aren't rising so or you're where

 0:37:00.400,0:37:05.200
 your top line is arriving rising you have to cut 
 the bottom line to be able to make some margin

 0:37:05.200,0:37:11.520
 like adoption of of open source software again 
 becomes back in vogue i think there's a cycle here

 0:37:11.520,0:37:17.600
 that can that maps very nicely in the modern era 
 unfortunately the thing that we are going to deal

 0:37:17.600,0:37:24.240
 with in this economic you know distress post covid 
 is that a lot of that effort is going into the the

 0:37:24.240,0:37:31.360
 uh crypto and and blockchain communities and not 
 into areas that could use the development like uh

 0:37:31.360,0:37:36.960
 like e-commerce um and and traditional 
 like deployed software and that's where

 0:37:36.960,0:37:42.720
 we are contending as an as an ecosystem of the 
 lack of ability to hire and retain people that

 0:37:42.720,0:37:47.520
 are doing interesting cutting-edge work uh the 
 last time we had a little bit of an economic dip

 0:37:48.480,0:37:57.360
 um uh it was uh we had a similar situation 
 uh and and this is um uh 2000 and this is

 0:37:57.360,0:38:07.120
 like right around uh the trump election um 
 originally uh in 2016 um profanity yeah yeah

 0:38:07.840,0:38:13.760
 yes uh exactly clean let's keep our clean 
 rating um but right right around that same uh

 0:38:14.560,0:38:21.200
 that same uh era uh you know we had uh uh uh you 
 know a little bit of a flat line in in economic

 0:38:21.200,0:38:26.640
 and gdp growth at least here in the united states 
 uh you saw a lot of folks putting uh huge amounts

 0:38:26.640,0:38:32.800
 of effort into open source libraries for ai and 
 machine learning and python development um and uh

 0:38:33.440,0:38:40.640
 so i i feel like just we might have had a dearth 
 of 12 13 years ago of people that were you know uh

 0:38:41.600,0:38:47.200
 in deployed software ecosystems nowadays we have 
 a lot of other interesting work to have to compete

 0:38:47.200,0:38:52.320
 with and that's you know yet another reason 
 why like you cannot create highfalutin you know

 0:38:52.320,0:38:58.640
 high-minded uh e-commerce frameworks today and 
 get the kind of traction that you had you know uh

 0:38:58.640,0:39:04.400
 solving massive engineering problems in e-commerce 
 you know years ago those those folks just don't do

 0:39:04.400,0:39:09.120
 e-commerce work right now they're moving on to 
 other types of projects look at fabrizio braca

 0:39:09.120,0:39:16.160
 like what's he doing these days like the guy you 
 know i yeah it's it's they move on to to solve

 0:39:16.160,0:39:22.560
 bigger problems at bigger scale right that's 
 a really interesting um observation i hadn't

 0:39:22.560,0:39:27.200
 i hadn't thought about that at all but um and 
 probably doesn't hold up it doesn't hold water

 0:39:27.200,0:39:32.080
 i'm coming back to why hoover now like i i think 
 that's the reason is like we need something that's

 0:39:32.080,0:39:37.040
 consumable by an average human being developer who 
 doesn't have to be a super developer to be able

 0:39:37.040,0:39:42.160
 to get any work done also by and large because 
 magento is deployed as the open source product

 0:39:42.160,0:39:48.000
 you don't have massive teams of people working on 
 this stuff that have broad capabilities across an

 0:39:48.000,0:39:56.640
 entire stack right sort of i sort of disagree in 
 the sense that i don't see it so much as like oh

 0:39:56.640,0:40:02.480
 like people are trying to cut costs they're 
 looking for open source i feel like it just has

 0:40:02.480,0:40:11.280
 to do with the fact that m2's front-end framework 
 is garbage beast stupid and i don't think villain

 0:40:11.280,0:40:17.440
 would have built this if like economic cycles 
 being what they are if they had executed really

 0:40:17.440,0:40:23.600
 well on on on on that i don't think one would 
 have had any reason to even want to build this

 0:40:23.600,0:40:28.560
 you know literally nobody would have ever built 
 this like if this is this was the doctor strange

 0:40:28.560,0:40:34.800
 like this is the one out of like six million you 
 know multiverse possibilities we wound up in the

 0:40:34.800,0:40:41.040
 worst timeline where trump is president the m2 
 front-end framework is created and and then we

 0:40:41.040,0:40:49.120
 got kovid like it was those those things in in 
 that order um but but but actually we we um you

 0:40:49.120,0:40:54.800
 mentioned that you're not at integer net anymore 
 and so have you he's hiring his own people now

 0:40:57.040,0:41:01.440
 we have a tradition on mage talk 
 of when somebody goes full time

 0:41:02.000,0:41:05.040
 oh yeah somebody starts a 
 side project and goes out time

 0:41:06.080,0:41:11.840
 we have a tradition of announcing this on 
 the bot but that's that's amazing are you

 0:41:11.840,0:41:16.480
 that's it that's correct congratulations 
 are you you're full time on on it now right

 0:41:18.320,0:41:26.560
 um yeah um it was pretty clear beginning of 
 the year that um to launch viva i needed to um

 0:41:26.560,0:41:34.880
 spend full time working on it and um i i 
 wanted to launch of february so i took a

 0:41:36.160,0:41:41.600
 un unpaid month off for in february and then we 
 prolonged that to march and then we decided to

 0:41:43.920,0:41:49.760
 to um let me work full-time on ufa 
 and and my employees really because

 0:41:50.320,0:41:57.600
 it made so much more sense for both integer 
 and me um to build out viva and there was

 0:41:57.600,0:42:06.000
 just too much that needed to be done right um 
 um integer has let me write this wave since

 0:42:06.640,0:42:13.760
 so this started in in june last year i it's my 
 first commit um and then two days later i had a

 0:42:13.760,0:42:22.160
 home page that worked and and that i showed at 
 colleagues at integernet and we all got excited

 0:42:22.160,0:42:29.840
 a month later i had a prototype and they decided 
 to do a first project with that and they were so

 0:42:29.840,0:42:34.880
 enthusiastic to finally have something enhanced 
 that they could really deliver stuff with so

 0:42:35.920,0:42:44.080
 also that it was immediately apparent that 
 building stuff with tufa goes much faster faster

 0:42:44.080,0:42:52.240
 than with luma faster than with pwa solutions um 
 so we delivered the first project um i think all

 0:42:52.240,0:42:57.840
 the front-end work was done in four to six weeks 
 which would normally would have taken three months

 0:42:58.880,0:43:06.000
 and that was built on my prototype was a b2b shop 
 so it needed some custom work and not a lot of

 0:43:06.000,0:43:12.400
 magenta features were not needed there by default 
 because we had all these quick order stuff that we

 0:43:12.400,0:43:18.800
 did with graphql which is we immediately created 
 this hybrid between uh old stack new stack so new

 0:43:18.800,0:43:26.720
 technologies are just thrown in whenever it makes 
 sense uh in that case it really did um and then

 0:43:28.720,0:43:33.680
 i think that was awkward as we 
 started the first project and then um

 0:43:35.840,0:43:42.640
 they immediately started up to act for projects 
 um and then they stopped working on one few

 0:43:42.640,0:43:46.720
 storefront project that they have been working on 
 for eight months and they couldn't deliver before

 0:43:46.720,0:43:51.920
 the end of the year and the customer didn't there 
 was there was no end in sight and they couldn't

 0:43:51.920,0:43:59.840
 they couldn't properly estimate what it would 
 cost to finish it and um by january they released

 0:43:59.840,0:44:09.280
 the full rebuild on huffa um within that line 
 and uh within that line and well obviously no

 0:44:09.280,0:44:16.000
 longer within budget because they already crossed 
 that four times with with hugh slothron um so

 0:44:17.680,0:44:22.160
 yeah it made a lot of sense for them 
 to invest in this product to make sure

 0:44:22.160,0:44:27.040
 that it got markets ready and they could 
 continue build their business on top of it

 0:44:27.680,0:44:34.800
 um so we had a really good relationship there 
 and a partnership where they allowed me to build

 0:44:34.800,0:44:43.280
 stuff for their customers and then put into my 
 product um and yeah somewhere around january

 0:44:43.280,0:44:48.320
 uh most of the features that that they needed at 
 that point were completed and i just needed to

 0:44:48.320,0:44:52.160
 keep going to build and all the features that 
 the community needed and my customers needed

 0:44:52.800,0:45:00.080
 so i went full focus on that from february 
 and then the 12th of february we launched

 0:45:01.040,0:45:07.600
 version 1.0 and the feature matrix was 
 already more complete than pwa at that time

 0:45:08.320,0:45:15.200
 um i had wishlists during my launch of 
 february which was released yesterday for pwa

 0:45:16.480,0:45:26.080
 wow um so um yeah from there one one obvious issue 
 that we needed to tackle was the ecosystem of of

 0:45:26.080,0:45:34.320
 extensions and um we haven't had major releases 
 on uva in the past three months i think because

 0:45:34.320,0:45:38.320
 there has gone a lot of focus in these 
 compatibility modules that we built

 0:45:38.880,0:45:46.080
 so we take modules from from uh what our 
 customers request so what's in high demand we

 0:45:47.760,0:45:52.480
 we take those we make them compatible uh 
 with huffa and that we shared just the

 0:45:52.480,0:45:58.480
 code to make it compatible with our customers 
 so today i launched a blog on our own website

 0:45:59.600,0:46:07.680
 so on hoover io and that's built on the mage 
 some block and that's a compatibility module

 0:46:07.680,0:46:12.080
 that just contains some html files that 
 make it compatible they contain all the

 0:46:12.080,0:46:16.880
 css in javascript and um i made it compatible 
 for our own website and then immediately

 0:46:17.440,0:46:22.080
 built a competitive compatibility module out 
 of that that all of our customers can use now

 0:46:22.720,0:46:30.880
 um and uh yeah there's some some modules from 
 um with lead navigation and ajax filtering and

 0:46:30.880,0:46:35.520
 everything that we're not really too keen about 
 because they contain a lot of javascript and

 0:46:36.240,0:46:41.840
 obviously we don't like that but we've put 
 a lot of effort in these kind of modules to

 0:46:43.280,0:46:48.000
 to make at least some of those compatible so 
 on the whole range of functionalities that

 0:46:48.000,0:46:52.800
 merchants need at least we have examples 
 out there we have good documentation

 0:46:52.800,0:46:59.120
 we haven't even mentioned yet that finite cop 
 is yeah my business partner now oh my gosh

 0:46:59.120,0:47:05.680
 how did i not know that you did not know 
 that i did not know that he yeah so it's um

 0:47:06.320,0:47:12.560
 it's it's published uh publicly 
 first time this week in a blog

 0:47:12.560,0:47:21.120
 article from intergenerate which uh describes 
 the the birth of viva or like how is became

 0:47:23.200,0:47:33.200
 of offspring of of energynet so to say or spin-off 
 um and uh finai when i started working at integer

 0:47:33.200,0:47:41.280
 earlier this year and got involved with so much 
 that at some point he just he got gravity put him

 0:47:41.280,0:47:48.240
 towards hoover and um that's so cool that's 
 that's that's the coolest thing i love that

 0:47:50.800,0:47:58.000
 wow you got the killer team my gosh um 
 yeah so much knowledge and there's so much

 0:47:58.000,0:48:05.680
 um so much expertise that that finnai brings 
 in not only i mean first of all he's the best

 0:48:05.680,0:48:09.680
 the best person i could imagine to work 
 with because he's the kind is the nicest guy

 0:48:09.680,0:48:18.560
 he is and then also super super intelligent 
 and humble um and um he immediately started

 0:48:18.560,0:48:23.520
 off writing a lot of documentation and work on 
 these compatibility modules and just made the

 0:48:23.520,0:48:32.320
 whole ecosystem better from the data he joined and 
 and started working on it um so yeah we're really

 0:48:32.320,0:48:37.680
 we're really in the left so it's me it's finai we 
 have a front-end developer that started this week

 0:48:38.880,0:48:48.400
 he's is going to put full-time effort in this ui 
 comp uh ui component library so he'll be building

 0:48:51.360,0:48:56.080
 all kinds of menus and navigation 
 and galleries and swatch displays and

 0:48:56.080,0:49:00.000
 it's very much like tailwind 
 ui does a commercial package

 0:49:01.440,0:49:09.040
 that we we announced this in in in october already 
 like it was my it was my dream like that's the

 0:49:09.040,0:49:14.000
 product that i want to build but i needed to 
 build a platform to be able to build that product

 0:49:15.520,0:49:22.320
 and um that's going to be i mean the tailwind 
 ui e-commerce package was launched today so i

 0:49:23.120,0:49:28.720
 yeah video coming up so i feel uh i i would really 
 like to start playing with it tomorrow but i can't

 0:49:29.280,0:49:34.320
 um well you have a release you have a release 
 tomorrow yeah and then and then you have to go on

 0:49:34.320,0:49:41.440
 vacation because you told your wife yeah yeah yeah 
 yeah um and uh boy i need a vacation so that's

 0:49:41.440,0:49:50.320
 that's so good but um that ui library is already 
 amazing so building a shop with uva just means you

 0:49:50.320,0:49:57.920
 buy a license with tailwind ui take the e-commerce 
 package and then copy their html css or just html

 0:49:57.920,0:50:03.600
 because it contains the css and then you implement 
 it into who file with the with the functionalities

 0:50:03.600,0:50:11.840
 that we have you reuse the javascript that we that 
 we build and uh you have a beautiful website in

 0:50:12.640,0:50:18.560
 uh i i i don't want to exaggerate but like in 
 a fraction of the time you would normally spend

 0:50:19.600,0:50:24.400
 and uh that's that's to say the least 
 i think by the time by the time you you

 0:50:24.400,0:50:32.720
 dig into the documentation on ui components um 
 and and you write and you write like 16 or 20

 0:50:33.600,0:50:38.720
 xml files you could probably you know 
 you could probably get a lot more done

 0:50:38.720,0:50:42.240
 in hoover i wouldn't know because i can't 
 get my team to spend a thousand dollars

 0:50:42.240,0:50:46.000
 on your freaking license so you know 
 there's that it's a whole other thing

 0:50:47.760,0:50:52.080
 seriously wait we gotta we gotta dig into 
 no let's talk about this i'll i'll talk

 0:50:52.080,0:50:57.520
 crap about my team publicly i don't care 
 no i guess i'm investing in peace i'm just

 0:50:59.440,0:51:06.000
 i actually it's funny because i i would have 
 assumed it was more the um you know indie

 0:51:06.000,0:51:12.400
 developer that you know is just doing a little 
 random thing on the side that wants to use it

 0:51:12.400,0:51:16.720
 like i think i've run into one or two people 
 that have kind of fit that description and they

 0:51:16.720,0:51:20.800
 haven't been able to you know put down the money 
 to try it out but i would have thought like for

 0:51:20.800,0:51:28.800
 companies it would wouldn't be in a in a pre in a 
 prior era you know there there's absolutely a um

 0:51:29.440,0:51:34.400
 there would have been a team that is scrappy 
 working on it uh we have a number of of we

 0:51:34.400,0:51:39.600
 have a number of challenges one you know uh 
 something digital was acquired by right point

 0:51:39.600,0:51:45.440
 back in october um and just a lot of moving parts 
 i'm sure we're in the mist we're in the midst of a

 0:51:45.440,0:51:52.080
 no see you're trying to gloss over and i'm trying 
 to talk crap thank you for helping me out i love

 0:51:52.080,0:51:57.600
 it they're gonna play this back for me by the 
 way in my in my dismissal and be like um i'll

 0:51:57.600,0:52:00.720
 be like why are we sitting here and they'll be 
 like hold on one second they'll pull up you know

 0:52:01.600,0:52:09.840
 49 minutes and 27 seconds 51 30 on the podcast 
 um it basically comes down to this like we we you

 0:52:09.840,0:52:16.720
 know we what we deliver is extremely known and we 
 deliver it all the time right and we have a roster

 0:52:16.720,0:52:21.520
 of clients you know 50 some odd you know growth 
 clients that we deliver the same thing like we've

 0:52:21.520,0:52:25.680
 they're all in the same stack they have the 
 same common front end and back end there's an

 0:52:25.680,0:52:30.160
 extreme repeatability and predictability 
 for us to make any kind of investment

 0:52:30.160,0:52:35.120
 in the future it's not a dollar amount it's a 
 it's a willingness to put effort into is this

 0:52:35.120,0:52:39.920
 what we're going to do who's going to champion 
 it who becomes the product owner internally

 0:52:39.920,0:52:45.360
 the thousand dollars is nothing like it's nothing 
 i've seen us spend three thousand dollars on on a

 0:52:45.360,0:52:53.200
 bottle of wine so like it's it's about it's about 
 i'm just letting it rip watch this i won't have

 0:52:53.200,0:52:58.000
 a job next month i'll have to come work for 
 hoover um i could do you need an evangelist

 0:52:59.840,0:53:07.520
 um can you pay me in bitcoin that's what 
 kaelin wants to know um that won't fly with p9

 0:53:08.720,0:53:15.520
 i know i know i have to see i've seen that yeah 
 so like long story short it's you know uh as an

 0:53:15.520,0:53:21.520
 agency and especially one that has less and less 
 agency these days we're an agency without agency

 0:53:21.520,0:53:28.560
 um i i you know like what what what we do in the 
 future is actually like a long a long long long

 0:53:28.560,0:53:33.040
 road map of you know a year and a half two years 
 from now and we have to have someone internal to

 0:53:33.040,0:53:38.880
 champion it um and and sort of product manage it 
 as a new line of business and that's just takes

 0:53:38.880,0:53:42.720
 way more time than i'd like it to and that's 
 unfortunate and that's where we are but one day

 0:53:43.760,0:53:46.640
 this year it's happening 
 we're going to get there um

 0:53:49.200,0:53:55.600
 but hey maybe we could we just like rant about 
 things that we're mildly sure are going to get

 0:53:55.600,0:54:01.120
 us into into trouble and yeah i'm 100 sure this 
 will get me into trouble it's not even mild

 0:54:03.360,0:54:07.280
 it's all true though you can never you can 
 never say that i've lied like that's the

 0:54:10.800,0:54:17.280
 yeah how did we get onto this oh yeah yeah by the 
 way bill if you need a biz dev guy i mean i mean

 0:54:17.280,0:54:26.640
 i'm your guy i mean i'm i'm he'll do it he costs 
 20 000 a tweet i'm okay i'm overcoming objections

 0:54:26.640,0:54:31.200
 yeah kayla if if you're okay with your 
 biz dev guy having laser eyes on twitter

 0:54:31.760,0:54:38.800
 um you saw my laser eye of course i saw your 
 laser eyes i haven't gotten any comments on it yet

 0:54:39.440,0:54:44.960
 um so yeah let me know man can 
 we circle back to one thing

 0:54:44.960,0:54:50.960
 yeah please to use the best so what we do 
 here that's what we do we circle we circle

 0:55:01.520,0:55:08.080
 so one thing i'm heavily invested in is 
 and we left the topic um because of bitcoin

 0:55:08.080,0:55:19.040
 oh sorry the future the future of magento yeah um 
 and i just i just um i just want to ensure people

 0:55:21.280,0:55:30.320
 magento has a future like there's a bright future 
 from magento open source and i've been talking to

 0:55:32.720,0:55:42.160
 people that are absolutely capable of 
 carrying this platform um and either

 0:55:42.880,0:55:52.640
 adobe or the association comes up with a solid 
 plan to do this or another initiative will rise

 0:55:54.240,0:55:57.840
 and will enable the community and

 0:56:00.000,0:56:07.520
 have the strength and the and and the willingness 
 there is um the cool the best thing that

 0:56:07.520,0:56:12.080
 that has happened with huffa for me is 
 that all the people that reach out to me

 0:56:12.800,0:56:21.280
 um have so much passion for magento and want to 
 keep that going so badly and they miss they really

 0:56:21.280,0:56:32.400
 miss this community and and collaboration and um 
 contributing to things and helping each other out

 0:56:32.400,0:56:42.480
 and that has put all the right people on my scope 
 to um sit together and discuss what we can do

 0:56:43.280,0:56:54.000
 to give magento a future and i don't 
 want to get in the way of the association

 0:56:54.960,0:57:02.240
 and i don't want to i want i really appreciate 
 the relationship i have with people at adobe um

 0:57:02.240,0:57:08.080
 so i i really hope that um something 
 comes up that will bring out um

 0:57:08.960,0:57:19.040
 the best for the community and then i'm really 
 purely talking about the php monolith because

 0:57:19.040,0:57:26.880
 there's if if we talk about adobe caring about 
 open source i have the feeling that often means

 0:57:26.880,0:57:33.120
 the open source pwa app and not so much the 
 monolith because that's that's going to be

 0:57:33.120,0:57:40.320
 deprecated that's that's something that has been 
 communicated and that will happen in i think two

 0:57:40.320,0:57:48.880
 to four years uh the php monolith of magento is 
 going to be deprecated in two to four years yeah

 0:57:51.280,0:57:56.880
 that's interesting um does that 
 mean i have to learn peregrine now

 0:58:00.240,0:58:07.760
 no because magenta won't go away it's just um 
 it's it it won't go away it will it will only

 0:58:07.760,0:58:14.400
 be like a cockroach it'll just live on forever 
 no no yeah no that's not that's definitely not

 0:58:14.400,0:58:20.640
 what i have in mind um i think um we can bring 
 the right impulse back to magenta to have to

 0:58:20.640,0:58:26.560
 innovate it again it has been stagnant for the 
 last five years it really has and i think yeah um

 0:58:27.920,0:58:32.720
 not a lot has happened there especially 
 on the front end on the current front

 0:58:32.720,0:58:37.680
 end of the monolith so to say but also 
 on the back end there could have been

 0:58:38.480,0:58:45.600
 much more innovation if the right focus would 
 have been there and i think um open source

 0:58:45.600,0:58:51.840
 contributions are becoming less and less it's 
 becoming more people getting demotivated because

 0:58:51.840,0:58:57.760
 the whole process of getting um contributions 
 uh accepted are getting harder and harder

 0:58:59.280,0:59:06.480
 you see a lot of complaints i mean even freaking 
 people from varnish from the organization

 0:59:06.480,0:59:12.160
 varnish open pull requests that are that are 
 unanswered for over a year they're trying to

 0:59:12.160,0:59:20.240
 make magento better and suggest fixes for for 
 some issues in the way varnish is implemented and

 0:59:21.440,0:59:28.160
 it doesn't even get the right attention there 
 so um i think i really think we can change that

 0:59:28.160,0:59:38.400
 um but um this this might be an interesting 
 one to to come back to in uh one to two months

 0:59:39.200,0:59:46.960
 um and um and see where we're at then 
 um but um i feel like willem is ready

 0:59:46.960,0:59:51.600
 to take over as the bdfl for magento 
 i think so too i i i would allow it

 0:59:52.320,0:59:57.680
 to rise from the ashes this this shouldn't i 
 don't think magenta should be run by a person

 0:59:58.640,1:00:05.120
 that's i don't think i don't think if i should 
 run magento i think it should be a legend

 1:00:05.120,1:00:11.360
 is what it should be run by i i'm on record for a 
 very long time now saying that i feel like we the

 1:00:11.360,1:00:17.920
 the the community running magento is what we got 
 between magenta one and two and a lot of people

 1:00:17.920,1:00:24.720
 who were into a lot of fads at the time got a lot 
 of input into making magento ii the sort of camel

 1:00:24.720,1:00:31.280
 that it became you know they say that a horse 
 designed by a committee is a camel and um you know

 1:00:31.280,1:00:37.280
 there's it's like a camel is is a project that had 
 scope creep right like that's that's exactly what

 1:00:37.280,1:00:44.720
 happens and and i i i kind of i don't know i think 
 that there's a lot of decision fatigue too with

 1:00:44.720,1:00:50.400
 deployed software i think it's super necessary 
 and do i think it's going to live on 100 how do i

 1:00:50.400,1:00:57.600
 think that because i watch corporations put tens 
 of millions of dollars into magento every year

 1:00:58.800,1:01:05.600
 magenta one well no i'm magento too i i'm watching 
 it i i build it i i answer rfps every day like

 1:01:05.600,1:01:10.320
 that's what that's my my job is to help them 
 strategize how to use it in their organizations

 1:01:10.320,1:01:17.840
 it's not happening on you know kalin's 
 you know smokeshopemporium.com anymore

 1:01:17.840,1:01:24.720
 it happens on it happens in the it's happening 
 in powering that business is doing quite well

 1:01:26.400,1:01:34.080
 they only accept bitcoin nothing to see that but 
 the the it so so like your mom-and-pop e-commerce

 1:01:34.080,1:01:40.800
 store is being powered by something else these 
 days but uh big big enterprise e-commerce builds

 1:01:40.800,1:01:46.880
 that are powering like your health care system 
 and your your post-health care needs um uh

 1:01:46.880,1:01:53.520
 uh post-operation like you need to buy a walker 
 you need to go home with uh a bunch of uh uh care

 1:01:53.520,1:01:58.080
 instructions and maybe you need some like you need 
 to you know put some stuff in your house to like

 1:01:58.080,1:02:02.720
 help you with mobility like a a frame around the 
 toilet for you to be able to get up and down like

 1:02:02.720,1:02:07.840
 all these things are commerce solutions that 
 like companies all over the world are building

 1:02:07.840,1:02:12.880
 and they're putting tens of millions into magento 
 i don't think that magento is going to die

 1:02:12.880,1:02:18.560
 i think magento has already evolved as a product 
 as we understand it and the use cases have adapted

 1:02:18.560,1:02:24.560
 what i would love to see is to see the use 
 cases come back to the four where we have a uh

 1:02:25.760,1:02:31.440
 where there can be more consumer interaction and 
 it can power the new types than the new flexible

 1:02:31.440,1:02:36.800
 consumer experiences of the future um because i'm 
 afraid that it's being relegated to a b2b software

 1:02:36.800,1:02:46.400
 stack and and you know that's uh uh you know that 
 would be a shame right that would be a real shame

 1:02:46.400,1:02:53.040
 because i think it's powerful for it it's capable 
 of so much more i can just imagine like i just i

 1:02:53.040,1:02:59.200
 literally imagined it i mean i know i'm joking 
 about it but but i imagine bill i'm taking over

 1:02:59.200,1:03:05.040
 in that role and and i i think we've said this 
 a lot of times philip that like you need that

 1:03:05.040,1:03:11.760
 person that bdfl that taylor otwell that yo that 
 roy you need that person at the helm of a product

 1:03:11.760,1:03:19.200
 that loves it that's dedicated to it um to kind 
 of steer it like and in many ways i think that

 1:03:19.200,1:03:24.320
 might be the one single thing that magenta 
 like lost as somewhere along the way i mean

 1:03:25.840,1:03:29.840
 does roy get do we are we allowed to cite 
 roy's name he's been gone longer than he was

 1:03:29.840,1:03:35.520
 there i i feel like it's not he doesn't count 
 anymore the guy sold it the first opportunity

 1:03:35.520,1:03:41.920
 one person says one person says hey would you 
 like can i buy that and he's like yes please

 1:03:43.520,1:03:48.960
 and the next person says can i buy that and 
 he's like absolutely you can mark level says

 1:03:48.960,1:03:55.680
 i think you need help running this thing he's 
 like here have it just take it please that was

 1:03:55.680,1:04:01.040
 anyone i think that was i mean i think it was 
 on one of these one of these exponential curves

 1:04:01.040,1:04:07.040
 and that was the moment however long ago it was 
 yeah the curve started to and then it took years

 1:04:07.040,1:04:12.000
 and years and years and then you know whatever i 
 can i can and i know willem hates is saying this

 1:04:12.000,1:04:18.560
 because he gave all these caveats about how he has 
 villain has a beautiful story by the way and we're

 1:04:18.560,1:04:24.640
 pooping all over it like there's something really 
 truly remarkable and very i think upbeat about

 1:04:25.200,1:04:30.800
 being bullish on the future of magento and not 
 just saying that from like conjecture but saying

 1:04:30.800,1:04:37.440
 yeah and i'm doing something about it and and and 
 i'm not even joking at all like i oh because i

 1:04:37.440,1:04:43.680
 i've yeah i've been i've been joking no but 
 like i genuinely could see well i'm doing that

 1:04:43.680,1:04:49.840
 and i know how much he loves magento you 
 know i i had that feeling about magento as

 1:04:49.840,1:04:54.240
 a developer myself for a number of years and then 
 i don't know what happened i something happened

 1:04:54.240,1:05:01.280
 you know you started tweeting for 20 grand of 
 pops and then yeah i love the community but like

 1:05:01.280,1:05:08.000
 it's just a money printer now and more 
 than just having that but having created a

 1:05:08.000,1:05:13.280
 real world product that people are using and 
 not only are they using it but they're loving it

 1:05:13.280,1:05:18.320
 when you create software that people love 
 you know like a laravel like a tailwind

 1:05:19.040,1:05:23.600
 there's something magical there and 
 like i hadn't thought about this thing

 1:05:23.600,1:05:30.960
 you know the rest of magento or whatever where 
 that might go uh the open source piece um but

 1:05:30.960,1:05:36.240
 uh that would be yeah awesome that'd be 
 beautiful like to see it it's what's been

 1:05:36.240,1:05:41.680
 desperately needed is for someone to come from the 
 outside of the organization and say hey here's a

 1:05:41.680,1:05:45.280
 totally different way of thinking about solving 
 this problem we're approaching this whole thing

 1:05:45.280,1:05:52.000
 all wrong and i like i so welcome that and applaud 
 you for doing it because it's not an easy thing to

 1:05:52.000,1:05:57.200
 do the fact that you're attracting others around 
 you that say and we want to help you with it like

 1:05:57.840,1:06:05.120
 yeah that's like this is that's that's how 
 community works um so many people that are eager

 1:06:05.120,1:06:14.160
 to see something like this happen it's only you 
 only need to ask and they pop up and there is

 1:06:15.680,1:06:20.880
 such a immense market around magento 
 the monolith as it stands currently i

 1:06:20.880,1:06:26.240
 should actually just stated this people pouring 
 millions and millions in it just this year alone

 1:06:28.240,1:06:37.600
 and i think all we need is um some 
 clarity about what will happen with it

 1:06:38.480,1:06:46.480
 and with magento with magento yeah so if we 
 speak about adobe commerce and magento being

 1:06:46.480,1:06:52.400
 magento being the open source monolith we 
 need to know what our future is going to

 1:06:52.400,1:06:56.640
 be with magento what that looks like and 
 i don't want to sit back and wait until

 1:06:59.200,1:07:03.680
 adobe's going to tell us like 
 if that takes too long then

 1:07:06.320,1:07:10.800
 then we have to speed things up 
 and i know the association is is

 1:07:11.920,1:07:19.200
 trying to trying to get a grip on this and i i 
 really hope that they that they that they can

 1:07:19.200,1:07:25.680
 accomplish um some statement on this 
 and some time path and just a clear

 1:07:25.680,1:07:30.640
 clear roadmap on what this will look like 
 because now all we have schematics that show us

 1:07:31.440,1:07:38.000
 how every bit and piece of the monolith will 
 be replaced with another api um until there's

 1:07:38.000,1:07:44.080
 nothing left to replace um so then we'll 
 finally have api coverage that would be nice

 1:07:46.160,1:07:57.760
 yeah but um of of a bunch of sas solutions apis 
 at any cost this is the funny this is the funny

 1:07:57.760,1:08:03.920
 problem i'm writing an e-book right now villain 
 that um it started out as like the definitive

 1:08:03.920,1:08:09.360
 guide to re-platforming and it was like here's 
 all the things you need to consider when

 1:08:09.360,1:08:13.680
 when moving from one platform to the next 
 and so i started doing customer interviews

 1:08:13.680,1:08:19.600
 and i started talking to people and i went and i 
 looked at all of our documentation of like how we

 1:08:19.600,1:08:24.960
 how we go about building new new sites and all 
 all the discovery work we do you know we put in

 1:08:24.960,1:08:28.800
 hundreds of hours of discovery to make sure that 
 we get everything right we don't forget anything

 1:08:29.440,1:08:32.800
 and i started noticing this theme 
 of like the hours that we spend

 1:08:33.680,1:08:39.280
 every year on discovery for re-platforming has 
 gone down every year for 10 years and i'm like

 1:08:39.280,1:08:44.400
 why is that and when i started looking into 
 it it's because nobody keeps data in their

 1:08:44.400,1:08:50.000
 ecommerce platform anymore some of it's a plavio 
 some of it's at yacht post some of it's like i've

 1:08:50.000,1:08:55.840
 got reviews over here i've got you know i've got 
 crm over here i've got cdp over here and i've got

 1:08:55.840,1:09:00.480
 it's like literally the only thing that is 
 even owned by the e-commerce platform at some

 1:09:00.480,1:09:06.320
 organizations is the product detail page and 
 that has upsells from nasto on it and it has

 1:09:06.320,1:09:12.000
 uh you know ugc from yatpo in it and it's like 
 half of the experience that you are going like

 1:09:12.000,1:09:17.280
 maybe the cart no i take it back bolt is driving 
 your checkout too and you have one click on every

 1:09:17.280,1:09:23.360
 page there is no ecommerce platform left there's 
 nothing left there's nothing like the migrate

 1:09:24.160,1:09:30.320
 that's a specific part of the market though there 
 is still a very large smb market that doesn't that

 1:09:30.320,1:09:34.800
 doesn't do that no they don't do that magento 
 magento was their platform and it has their

 1:09:34.800,1:09:39.360
 product data and it has their stock and it has 
 the pricing and has to check out it has everything

 1:09:39.360,1:09:47.280
 they use boost erp for their erp and they're uh 
 good to go they're fulfilling out of the back end

 1:09:47.280,1:09:52.560
 of magento dude they're literally printing labels 
 with magento you can do that about to boost erp

 1:09:52.560,1:09:58.960
 by the way are they sponsoring this episode that 
 would be great if they were because do they even

 1:09:58.960,1:10:03.520
 exist i've never even heard of boost erp you never 
 heard boost the is is that what's called boost

 1:10:04.480,1:10:12.000
 boost erp the magento the magenta the erp that's 
 a magento extension is that true is it i've never

 1:10:12.000,1:10:17.120
 heard of it yeah i think it's called it's like a 
 french it's like a french company oh that's beast

 1:10:20.080,1:10:26.800
 beast i derailed i got a little excited um it's 
 late for villain sorry come back around sorry

 1:10:28.080,1:10:34.960
 yeah i'm sorry to say this but uh it's uh really 
 late here okay uh i have a release day tomorrow

 1:10:35.680,1:10:44.080
 as we've heard um where can people where can 
 people get huba where can they get it hyva

 1:10:44.080,1:10:51.360
 dot i-o and uh we're big we're big supporters of 
 what you're doing if in spirit and then sometime

 1:10:51.360,1:10:57.600
 in some future also in truth i'll i'll uh uh 
 we'll find a way to make it happen at least

 1:10:57.600,1:11:03.120
 on on the right point side of things but um hey 
 caitlyn maybe you could uh take some time and uh

 1:11:03.120,1:11:08.320
 and and take some of that hard-earned tweet money 
 and uh and maybe we could spin up a scholarship

 1:11:08.320,1:11:13.840
 for uh for a developer that's looking to 
 uh to get a license that's a great idea

 1:11:14.800,1:11:19.200
 take a little crypto earnings take a little 
 one of those tweets pop a tweet out for 10k

 1:11:19.200,1:11:24.880
 take it 50 haircut well i don't have 
 any crypto earnings because we're we're

 1:11:37.760,1:11:41.680
 if you have time phillip do you want to do a 
 couple more minutes after yeah we got we got

 1:11:41.680,1:11:46.000
 a little we got a few more minutes after villain 
 okay um what what an awesome time for you to spend

 1:11:46.000,1:11:50.800
 time with us i know it took us literal months to 
 make this happen and i'm sorry that it did but uh

 1:11:51.680,1:11:55.120
 it came at a great time and i wish the 
 best to you and your family man and

 1:11:56.000,1:12:03.120
 congratulations on all the success so far same 
 to you and and uh thanks for having me i'm

 1:12:03.120,1:12:11.200
 really glad we finally got to do this i hope 
 we can do it not too long from now um once more

 1:12:11.200,1:12:16.800
 and we can we might be able to talk about 
 some more future magento things i'd like

 1:12:16.800,1:12:22.880
 that we should we should start a podcast 
 called hoover talk that's not enough i don't

 1:12:22.880,1:12:30.320
 think that's necessary just uh just keep keep 
 keep mitchell going is it you think okay i am

 1:12:32.400,1:12:39.200
 i i think the whole community owes you guys so 
 much um and i i was meaning to say something

 1:12:39.200,1:12:47.520
 along these lines um i remember eight nine 
 years ago uh i was living closer nearer near

 1:12:47.520,1:12:53.280
 a forest and i walked my dog every day and many 
 of those walks were accompanied by your voices

 1:12:54.400,1:13:00.240
 listening to the latest of the magenta world 
 and so many insights and so many things that

 1:13:00.240,1:13:07.920
 put me into the community and made me feel 
 more part of that just from hearing you guys

 1:13:07.920,1:13:14.480
 discussing these things and i think it it goes 
 for so many people in the community who have been

 1:13:15.360,1:13:26.640
 bonded to magento by by you guys and i think um 
 it's awesome um and i i i know it's different

 1:13:26.640,1:13:32.640
 times and the community magenta community 
 doesn't mean the same thing exactly as it did

 1:13:33.360,1:13:40.480
 five years ago eight years ago but um yeah i'm 
 i'm happy you guys are still doing this and um

 1:13:42.640,1:13:48.480
 great stuff thank you thanks man thank you super 
 hard to get not to get emotional about it i

 1:13:48.480,1:13:56.320
 appreciate it yeah but uh we really appreciate 
 it man and uh have a good night over there um

 1:13:57.040,1:14:00.560
 and uh we'll talk to you soon i think 
 you can just close out of the browser

 1:14:01.360,1:14:06.240
 um right or you know what i take that 
 back it probably is going to want to

 1:14:06.240,1:14:13.840
 upload locally so you probably are just 
 going to want to like click up close

 1:14:27.040,1:14:36.800
 fun that was cool dude um you haven't asked me 
 what this thing is yet that i've been foreign

 1:14:37.360,1:14:44.960
 i know what i i'm playing with lego blocks because 
 is it i figured something out it's a brain hack if

 1:14:44.960,1:14:50.800
 i don't have something to play with i'll pick my 
 phone up and and if i pick my phone up then i'm

 1:14:50.800,1:14:58.160
 toast because i i won't i like i there's my brain 
 needs to do something and i i actually listen

 1:14:58.160,1:15:02.800
 better if i'm active if i'm playing with something 
 this is a little clamped for like a camera

 1:15:02.800,1:15:09.200
 um and this is a thing that i found that i don't 
 think is related at all but screws in very like in

 1:15:09.200,1:15:18.080
 a very satisfying way to it you ever watched the 
 um uh what is it the reddit uh page of satisfying

 1:15:18.080,1:15:26.720
 uh oddly satisfying or oddly satisfied yeah yeah 
 yep you know what's funny is my my kids uh watch

 1:15:26.720,1:15:31.920
 some like kids youtube channels that are called 
 oddly satisfying it's like people cutting like

 1:15:31.920,1:15:38.560
 kinetic sand with knives and um squishing slime 
 and i don't know some other stuff that's like

 1:15:39.360,1:15:45.920
 how is that a thing yeah have you have you 
 i've heard about this uh this whole slime thing

 1:15:45.920,1:15:51.840
 and i don't understand it at all but i i've 
 heard that it's i don't understand it either

 1:15:53.040,1:15:57.120
 it was actually i think it was bigger a little 
 while ago you know tj and his daughter kind of

 1:15:57.120,1:16:02.800
 started a little slime slime business on the 
 side that's right yeah that's right that's right

 1:16:02.800,1:16:05.840
 that's why i want to say those like 
 2019 they were like she was making

 1:16:06.560,1:16:10.800
 uh slime and kind of selling it at 
 like local farmers markets and stuff

 1:16:11.440,1:16:18.800
 right pretty dope um yeah there's like a whole 
 there was like a whole thing in the slime market

 1:16:18.800,1:16:22.720
 around like making slime that looked like things 
 and then you squish it and it's slime it was

 1:16:23.280,1:16:29.040
 like artwork almost um that's how you knew 
 the markets were frothy and due for a downturn

 1:16:31.680,1:16:39.520
 dude it's so good to talk to you man it's 
 a lot of fun it's like i need to talk to

 1:16:39.520,1:16:43.680
 you more often because when i'm not talking to 
 you i'm like buying nfts and and you know and

 1:16:43.680,1:16:51.200
 swapping you know ave and uh and sushi swap 
 and i'm in my own crypto world too really i

 1:16:51.200,1:16:54.560
 couldn't tell that to i couldn't tell that to 
 villain because i didn't want him to give me a

 1:16:54.560,1:17:00.960
 hard time about it i just ganged up on you over 
 it that's horrible the whole time you were on my

 1:17:09.760,1:17:17.760
 we already did this uh so you did you did you 
 actually buy some nfts oh i i was on the original

 1:17:17.760,1:17:25.280
 like train back in december i i have no way yeah i 
 have uh so i started on top shot in like november

 1:17:25.280,1:17:30.000
 or december and i bought i don't know i've spent 
 many too many thousands of dollars on top shot

 1:17:30.640,1:17:36.320
 um quite the i have quite the collection 
 there and uh and then there was a hot shot

 1:17:37.120,1:17:43.440
 is that like it's an nba nft that was powered 
 by donkey labs and um it's the one that was

 1:17:43.440,1:17:48.320
 sort of the pokemon go moment where like a lot 
 of consumers like got into it like oh these are

 1:17:48.320,1:17:53.600
 digital trading cards well it's actually like 
 it's powered by something um and then there was

 1:17:53.600,1:18:01.120
 a project that got launched uh that that got on my 
 radar on twitter um called hash masks and it was a

 1:18:01.120,1:18:07.440
 it was like oh this is a generative art project 
 and it was an nft and i was like oh my gosh we

 1:18:07.440,1:18:14.320
 covered generative art back two three years ago on 
 on future commerce so i pulled up this old episode

 1:18:15.040,1:18:21.760
 that uh that uh talked about cryptokitties and 
 i was like what i was like about that so i went

 1:18:21.760,1:18:26.720
 and checked out cryptokitties they were going 
 for like fifty thousand dollars dude that's one

 1:18:26.720,1:18:32.240
 of the big ones right when i saw that it was one 
 of the og's it was cryptokitties uh crypto punks

 1:18:32.240,1:18:38.640
 and one or two others um moon uh moon cats 
 i want to say moon cats was one the original

 1:18:39.200,1:18:45.440
 and like when you when when you look at that and 
 you look at all these projects and like there were

 1:18:45.440,1:18:50.320
 there were no nft projects that were launching 
 in like november december i looked at hash masks

 1:18:50.320,1:18:54.000
 and i was like i think this is going to be a 
 thing so i wrote a big piece for future commerce

 1:18:54.000,1:18:57.840
 about it and then i put my money where my mouth 
 is and i bought a bunch of nfts i bought all the

 1:18:57.840,1:19:04.000
 wrong ones i didn't buy the ones that made it um i 
 remember sitting with my wife on a sunday morning

 1:19:05.280,1:19:08.720
 and i'm sorry saturday morning and 
 we're sitting we're drinking coffee

 1:19:08.720,1:19:15.440
 and i had my thumb on open c to confirm purchase 
 of what of something called a board api club

 1:19:16.560,1:19:22.400
 and and you'll see everybody with these monkey 
 avatars now on twitter and uh and so there was

 1:19:22.400,1:19:30.160
 this drop of uh 10 000 apes i think it was and 
 um and they were all going for i want to say

 1:19:30.160,1:19:36.880
 like i forget what the original opening price was 
 like 0.05 ether piece and and i was like that's

 1:19:36.880,1:19:40.720
 it's a couple hundred bucks or something and i 
 had my thumb over it and jackie's like you're not

 1:19:40.720,1:19:44.560
 gonna buy another one of those are you and i'm 
 like i don't know i don't think so and she goes

 1:19:45.120,1:19:49.920
 she pointed at it she's like that one has your 
 hair you should buy that one and i was like i

 1:19:49.920,1:19:55.040
 don't know baby it was like 366 bucks and i'm 
 like i i can't see myself i don't know like i'm

 1:19:55.040,1:19:59.040
 at this point now that i like i investigated it 
 i learned a lot about it i bought a ton of them

 1:19:59.600,1:20:05.040
 and i was like i think i'm just gonna hold with 
 what i have that kaelyn is the project that that

 1:20:05.040,1:20:09.600
 ape that i would have bought would be worth 50 eat 
 right now which would be like 250 thousand dollars

 1:20:10.400,1:20:19.120
 so so kill me oh yeah so i have a bunch of 
 worthless nfts but it's been it's been a lot of

 1:20:19.120,1:20:24.240
 fun and jackie's an artist so she's like gotten 
 really deep into it to kind of like understand

 1:20:25.360,1:20:33.440
 you know what art means in in in a modern context 
 um yeah i i haven't um gotten too um into the the

 1:20:33.440,1:20:40.000
 nfts but i i actually heard a garyvee video 
 on like like an hour long video on it and um

 1:20:40.800,1:20:48.000
 and it was it was pretty pretty cool pretty pretty 
 interesting the idea of the uniqueness of like art

 1:20:48.000,1:20:53.920
 you know like the thing that makes an original 
 picasso uh valuable is the fact that it's the

 1:20:53.920,1:21:01.760
 original and that's authenticated in certain ways 
 so so like the similar idea idea and the digital

 1:21:02.400,1:21:08.800
 provenance is what they call it and um and 
 i think there's something really interesting

 1:21:08.800,1:21:13.680
 there i mean gary in particular you know made 
 like a million dollars off of selling scribbles

 1:21:13.680,1:21:20.960
 on as nfts so yeah right the rich could get 
 richer um but i do think that you know there's

 1:21:20.960,1:21:25.920
 hey you know i'm holding out hopes that you 
 know the owner of crypto sergs uh which is

 1:21:25.920,1:21:31.600
 one i bought into a few of is like i hope that 
 that guy maybe i mean listen you know maybe that

 1:21:31.600,1:21:36.400
 guy gets arrested as being like a famous serial 
 killer and then they'll be worth something one day

 1:21:36.400,1:21:43.040
 um because the province is like there's a story 
 now behind the person who created it um very few

 1:21:43.040,1:21:47.200
 very few few of these projects are actually going 
 to go much of anywhere without giant community

 1:21:47.200,1:21:52.160
 support which very few of them have that's the 
 ones that are you know going for insane amounts of

 1:21:52.160,1:21:58.720
 in same multiples or like these projects that 
 have uh tangential benefits like in mass which is

 1:21:58.720,1:22:04.560
 what board ape is doing you know board apes it's 
 basically what webb smith called a digital country

 1:22:04.560,1:22:09.600
 club i think that that makes a lot of sense it's 
 like you can only get on their discord if you own

 1:22:09.600,1:22:16.160
 one of those nfts you can only get um you know 
 you can listen to their like chill radio station

 1:22:16.160,1:22:22.960
 if you have one of their nfts like it is a status 
 symbol of some kind like whether that's the status

 1:22:22.960,1:22:29.760
 you want i think is debatable um but it's yeah 
 i think it's an interesting thing to watch and

 1:22:29.760,1:22:35.920
 i i definitely am keeping tabs on it because i do 
 think it has massive commerce implications um but

 1:22:37.680,1:22:45.200
 hey i mean uh it's it's crazy times man it's 
 wild time yeah yeah what um yeah i i've been

 1:22:45.200,1:22:51.520
 a little out of the loop recently so um how's 
 everything going future commerce i mean you guys

 1:22:51.520,1:23:01.040
 are out of control like out of control some of 
 the stuff you guys are doing and ten employees

 1:23:01.040,1:23:08.480
 uh raising around um are you serious yeah yeah are 
 we live are we recording still we're still live

 1:23:08.480,1:23:15.440
 man okay i'm raising around i'm not going to tell 
 anybody when or how much uh on here um and so uh

 1:23:16.400,1:23:23.440
 yeah it's it's a it's a whole thing um it's it's 
 gigantic um very proud of what we have there and

 1:23:23.440,1:23:29.040
 we've got a new project launching 
 in uh a few weeks time uh called 9x9

 1:23:29.920,1:23:35.440
 a lot of cool stuff man we've got a you know we've 
 got freaking tax nexus in multiple states and

 1:23:36.400,1:23:41.440
 payroll and ar and ap and it's very much a 
 business that's you know that takes a lot

 1:23:41.440,1:23:48.560
 of effort to run it's very hard to have a side 
 project yeah yeah it's crazy that's seven figs

 1:23:48.560,1:23:55.520
 of revenue baby crushing it are you serious 
 dead serious dude that's hashtag building

 1:23:56.720,1:24:06.240
 building public um it is wild right it's 
 wild insane it is my tax bill is also insane

 1:24:09.200,1:24:13.520
 so i mean you've got to be well i guess we'll 
 talk more offline about the future plans but

 1:24:13.520,1:24:19.600
 i mean you've got to be oh we've got some 
 plans we got more time into it rocket fuel

 1:24:20.320,1:24:25.920
 you know we've we've we're we're doing some 
 uh some huge stuff you know there's there's

 1:24:25.920,1:24:31.200
 actually i do want to talk a little bit about the 
 problem that needs to be solved in trade media

 1:24:31.200,1:24:40.080
 um if e-commerce is getting bigger uh 
 why isn't the the total number of like

 1:24:40.880,1:24:47.120
 content consumers in e-commerce growing 
 and i have some proof points there uh

 1:24:47.840,1:24:54.160
 you know at right point i i govern a pretty 
 large performance marketing budget and um

 1:24:54.160,1:24:58.800
 you know i i sit in a part of the org where i'm 
 part of you know part of what i do is oversee

 1:24:58.800,1:25:04.880
 demand gen and anytime somebody says they govern 
 a budget you know that that's a healthy budget you

 1:25:04.880,1:25:10.000
 know they're not they're not running a budget 
 we spend we spend some money governing that

 1:25:10.000,1:25:16.080
 yeah we govern it we don't we you know we 
 don't deploy a budget or run a budget we govern

 1:25:16.080,1:25:23.840
 the budget government um yeah yeah so yeah 
 it's a it is a very uh it's an eye-opening

 1:25:23.840,1:25:30.080
 thing that i have insight into every single 
 retail trade publication how big their list is

 1:25:30.080,1:25:34.880
 how much influence they have what their open rates 
 are what their click-through rates are and i know

 1:25:34.880,1:25:39.520
 what content they're producing and they're all 
 doing the same shtick they're reporting on what's

 1:25:39.520,1:25:45.600
 happening right now with very few exceptions 
 um emarketer might be one of the exceptions

 1:25:45.600,1:25:53.120
 but in reality you know retail dive retail brew 
 nrfs list like they're all addressing the same

 1:25:53.120,1:25:59.440
 and fifty thousand people that's it and 
 and if you if you look at like you know

 1:26:00.480,1:26:04.880
 what is what i forget what the number is but 
 e-commerce penetration is growing you know

 1:26:04.880,1:26:11.920
 year over year we have there's there's very few 
 people to hire in our space we we we lack jobs

 1:26:11.920,1:26:16.000
 uh e-commerce is going to continue to grow 
 and it's going to be boom town pretty soon

 1:26:16.000,1:26:22.640
 like we need more content consumers in for 
 trade and and business media in e-commerce

 1:26:22.640,1:26:28.080
 and you have to go create those you can't 
 just go find them these people don't listen

 1:26:28.080,1:26:33.200
 to professional business content they're not 
 entrepreneurs they're people in order to cash

 1:26:33.200,1:26:38.800
 in order management and return logistics and 
 supply chain and you have to create content

 1:26:38.800,1:26:45.600
 specific to what they care about and only that and 
 and so the way that we'll succeed is when we get

 1:26:45.600,1:26:49.680
 in front of those people with something that they 
 actually care about until then they're listening

 1:26:49.680,1:26:55.600
 to joe rogan pretty much non-stop on repeat um 
 and you have to compete with that like that's

 1:26:55.600,1:26:59.680
 what you're competing with and and that's where 
 the absence of like business media is not fun

 1:27:00.560,1:27:07.760
 there's no fun and there's no like voice or tone 
 it's in it it's so interesting because with the um

 1:27:08.960,1:27:15.200
 not e-commerce way but with the bitcoin stuff 
 i've been i've gone from previously listening

 1:27:15.200,1:27:22.560
 to like comedy podcasts and stuff like that and 
 really kind of unplugging from like work like

 1:27:22.560,1:27:29.040
 like learning podcast which which for many years 
 i was i was spending a lot of time doing that um

 1:27:29.600,1:27:34.960
 and um so it's kind of in this like unplugging 
 stage and then just recently like like two weeks

 1:27:34.960,1:27:40.160
 ago i've started listening to podcasts and i'll 
 start this net and then all and then there's i

 1:27:40.160,1:27:47.600
 don't know have six or seven that i'm and and i'm 
 like i'm spending hours so i'm like a new content

 1:27:47.600,1:27:55.200
 consumer in in in this particular you know niche 
 of the bitcoin stuff um and i'm just listening to

 1:27:55.200,1:28:02.560
 hours a day of this stuff it's like i'm like fired 
 up on it and and and i've sort of stopped like

 1:28:02.560,1:28:08.880
 listening to the kind of entertainment oriented 
 stuff yeah um and and i'm i'm just in this weird

 1:28:08.880,1:28:15.360
 like like stage where i'm just wanting to to learn 
 but it's funny you mentioned that because it's um

 1:28:17.040,1:28:23.040
 some of those dynamics right of somebody 
 getting into a certain um profession like

 1:28:23.040,1:28:28.640
 business oriented work wearing a professional 
 type of content and then eating it up you know

 1:28:29.520,1:28:40.960
 and and and i'll say um there's a myth that 
 goes around too of the uh well business

 1:28:40.960,1:28:48.560
 media took a hit during you know post pandemic 
 because people didn't have a commute right um

 1:28:50.800,1:28:57.280
 like i would dare anyone listening to this uh to 
 open up their phone uh and maybe you too and like

 1:28:57.280,1:29:02.000
 i want you to go to your screen time and you tell 
 me what your screen time is right now oh yeah it's

 1:29:02.000,1:29:07.520
 gonna you open it up gonna be ugly it's ugly right 
 like you're spending 10 11 hours a day looking at

 1:29:07.520,1:29:13.920
 stuff on your phone it's that you just don't have 
 like we have a and we're incredibly attuned now

 1:29:13.920,1:29:19.600
 to things that are boring and we don't have time 
 for it because we don't have to be bored anymore

 1:29:19.600,1:29:24.320
 humanity doesn't have to be bored and that 
 is that is what you're competing with it's

 1:29:24.320,1:29:29.520
 not that it's not that people don't have a 
 commute it's that there are things that are

 1:29:29.520,1:29:34.640
 infinitely more interesting in other channels 
 for them to go pay attention to and there is

 1:29:34.640,1:29:42.080
 like plenty of advice to be found of like how to 
 run your email better on tick tock than there is

 1:29:42.080,1:29:46.160
 in whatever podcast you subscribe to that 
 clavio's sponsoring and by the way i love

 1:29:46.160,1:29:51.840
 clavio and they sponsor future commerce so please 
 keep doing business with us go to clayview.com

 1:29:57.120,1:30:00.880
 that's one of the that's one of the challenges 
 that we have right now is that you have to

 1:30:00.880,1:30:05.520
 compete with the joe rogans of the world um you 
 have to compete that's what you're competing for

 1:30:05.520,1:30:12.960
 attention with right so let's yeah let's let's 
 solve that and we can create prolific consumers

 1:30:12.960,1:30:19.120
 it uh in trade media if it had something worth 
 listening to i'm not talking about actionable

 1:30:19.120,1:30:27.440
 insights i'm talking about like humor and fun 
 and high concept like we we lack high concept

 1:30:27.440,1:30:35.040
 shows here like do you i listen to a podcast it's 
 absolutely preposterous um and it's it's uh uh

 1:30:35.600,1:30:47.040
 it is the show is a mock draft of like films with 
 a very specific like shtick to them it's like only

 1:30:47.040,1:30:54.480
 films that featured jesus christ what are the top 
 seven films you know and you know films where a

 1:30:54.480,1:30:58.400
 character is killed in the first 10 minutes what 
 are the top ten you know film or they're in the

 1:30:58.400,1:31:02.960
 first scene so then they go through those actual 
 and then they'll like argue about it for i'm not

 1:31:02.960,1:31:08.160
 for four and a half hours kaelin i'll listen 
 to like that podcast on a run because it's fun

 1:31:09.200,1:31:14.240
 and that's the that's the problem right like i 
 i listen to this other show where a guy pretends

 1:31:14.240,1:31:22.640
 to be uh george lucas and his co-host on the 
 show pretends to be wado who was the muppet who

 1:31:22.640,1:31:28.800
 like imprisoned both anakin skywalker and his 
 mom and the two of them pretend like they're on

 1:31:28.800,1:31:34.800
 a game show interviewing celebrities like it's 
 called george lucas presents i believe and it's

 1:31:34.800,1:31:41.120
 a comedy satire show it is preposterous but we 
 don't have that kind of like high concept humor

 1:31:41.120,1:31:48.080
 in trade media anyway it's really interesting 
 i i was listening to a couple of um like comedy

 1:31:48.080,1:31:58.240
 podcasts where it's like just a single guy 
 ranting for by himself on a podcast and uh

 1:31:58.240,1:32:04.000
 like bill burr has one you know and uh and 
 those are great anyway monologue shows are great

 1:32:04.800,1:32:09.280
 yeah and it's it's kind of like i'm 
 i'm sitting there and i'm going it's so

 1:32:10.560,1:32:16.400
 we talk about you know sort of podcast as 
 an a as a medium as a media as a medium

 1:32:17.040,1:32:21.360
 um right like there's a lot of podcasts that are 
 super highly produced and things like that and

 1:32:21.360,1:32:28.560
 then you just have a guy you know that's just 
 ranting into the air for an hour and it can be

 1:32:29.600,1:32:35.920
 interesting or like and that's an incredible it's 
 an incredible skill too right like that right that

 1:32:35.920,1:32:39.760
 shouldn't be taken lightly like it takes an 
 incredible amount of skill to be able to just

 1:32:39.760,1:32:45.440
 like talk and hold command someone's attention 
 single-handedly with like a single voice for

 1:32:45.440,1:32:53.360
 an hour that's yeah i don't know it's interesting 
 like absolutely not yeah yeah yeah like no i know

 1:32:53.360,1:32:58.880
 i mean that's that's like one and a bajillion um 
 to be able to do that and and it's interesting

 1:32:58.880,1:33:04.000
 because right now the stuff i'm listening to like 
 a lot of times you don't necessarily want like

 1:33:04.640,1:33:09.520
 a lot of it isn't very polished it's just like 
 a couple like a guy or a couple guys talking

 1:33:09.520,1:33:16.000
 and it's it's um what's the word it's more kind 
 of raw and authentic and they're just talking

 1:33:16.000,1:33:23.920
 about you know this or that and sometimes when you 
 hear something really polished like for me like if

 1:33:23.920,1:33:29.840
 i hear something polish it's it almost sounds a 
 little funny to my ear because i'm just used to

 1:33:30.720,1:33:35.840
 you know what i mean like this kind of more you 
 and i are both attuned to hearing and edited show

 1:33:36.800,1:33:44.400
 right like a sterile right having all the gaps 
 removed having all the yeah filler words removed

 1:33:44.400,1:33:50.080
 right we know what that sounds like yeah yeah it 
 takes me right out of it honestly yeah exactly

 1:33:50.080,1:33:55.520
 yeah exactly um it's it's i don't know it's almost 
 a stylistic thing you get used to certain style

 1:33:56.400,1:34:03.520
 um but yeah no it is it is it's interesting 
 man because i was very much like doing a lot of

 1:34:03.520,1:34:08.160
 entertainment stuff on my phone and i've gone 
 in and out of phases of like wanting to learn

 1:34:08.960,1:34:17.280
 a lot and it's just it's crazy how much you can 
 learn by just jumping into podcasts if you want

 1:34:17.280,1:34:23.040
 to right like it like if there's a topic out there 
 that you want to just dive into you know and for a

 1:34:23.040,1:34:27.280
 lot of people that you know maybe talk was part 
 of that for them for their magento journey and

 1:34:27.280,1:34:31.840
 whatever and and i'm sure there's a ton tons 
 of people that future commerce is that but

 1:34:32.560,1:34:40.720
 um you really can just like i mean uh but but but 
 it's like a it's like where are you as a person

 1:34:40.720,1:34:45.360
 you know like i like as a person you can 
 be in a stage where you're just kind of

 1:34:45.360,1:34:51.840
 more looking for entertainment you're not really 
 looking for the educational content you're just

 1:34:51.840,1:34:58.000
 not that interested in it you just don't have 
 the um attention span you know what i mean and

 1:34:58.000,1:35:05.520
 it just can kind of well i it's very from time 
 to time i i would even say that there's the

 1:35:07.840,1:35:11.440
 most of this especially if 
 it's audio content is consumed

 1:35:13.120,1:35:20.080
 while you're consuming something else like it's 
 it's not it's not like it requires all of your

 1:35:20.080,1:35:26.240
 attention to participate in fact a lot of tv is 
 this way today too right a lot of tv is is made

 1:35:26.960,1:35:37.760
 to second screen um it's it's uh where did i read 
 this article in slate i forget where i read it uh

 1:35:37.760,1:35:45.360
 basically that shows are created specifically to 
 have a cadence that like it only requires you to

 1:35:45.360,1:35:50.080
 have to like look up and see what's happening 
 every like 15 to 20 seconds like shows are

 1:35:50.080,1:35:54.800
 specifically created for you to not have to pay 
 full undivided attention to them anymore i'm like

 1:35:54.800,1:36:01.280
 that kind of tracks with me like that's because 
 a lot of shows are garbage um yeah so you know

 1:36:02.560,1:36:06.720
 podcasts in particular are the things that you're 
 doing while you're on the way to other things

 1:36:07.280,1:36:10.960
 it's the thing that you're doing while you're 
 doing something else right you're going out for

 1:36:10.960,1:36:16.000
 a run or you're you know you're working out in 
 the garage or whatever you're working on the yard

 1:36:16.000,1:36:19.040
 um they're the things that 
 you do that sort of happen

 1:36:22.000,1:36:25.280
 are you a full naked sauna man i bet you are no

 1:36:25.280,1:36:29.680
 everybody is everybody assumes that i 
 mean nobody like like nobody goes into

 1:36:29.680,1:36:33.360
 the sun and they well there's this one 
 random dude that does but like everybody

 1:36:33.360,1:36:38.800
 everybody is dressed and everybody is like has 
 shorts on in the sonics shorts on in the song

 1:36:42.080,1:36:48.480
 and uh sean at any time every time i mentioned to 
 me they're like are you naked in the sun i'm like

 1:36:48.480,1:36:54.160
 no no no i mean on tuesdays you know that's 
 maybe yes on tuesdays uh if i were naked in

 1:36:54.160,1:36:59.840
 the sauna i would like prop my leg up on on 
 the like on the on the seat and just stretch

 1:37:02.240,1:37:10.720
 you know really lean into it you know what's 
 funny man is i was thinking about this the other

 1:37:10.720,1:37:16.160
 day there's all these comedy podcasts listening 
 podcasts and i was going you know people would

 1:37:16.160,1:37:21.280
 joke about how mage talk is like you know 20 
 percent content or whatever percent content

 1:37:21.280,1:37:26.480
 and i was thinking of myself and i was going 
 you know i think mage talk was a comedy podcast

 1:37:27.280,1:37:33.840
 like i think like you know like the world's 
 worst punchline because it was about magenta

 1:37:35.920,1:37:42.400
 but i think you're right i think you're right you 
 know like and i was thinking uh you know we have

 1:37:42.400,1:37:49.760
 a good time and stuff and i love how now all of 
 our episodes are meta episodes where we just talk

 1:37:49.760,1:37:58.240
 about the podcast itself we talk about the show 
 that used to be uh on the show that now is it's

 1:37:58.240,1:38:04.880
 how dare you kailyn how dare you actually i 
 have two i have two guys uh at right point who

 1:38:05.520,1:38:11.360
 uh were prolific consumed talk about prolific 
 consumers they were very very big fans of mage

 1:38:11.360,1:38:17.440
 talk um really and ask all the time when is it 
 coming back and like they they've told me both

 1:38:17.440,1:38:22.960
 uh they've both told me no offense you know 
 future commerce isn't fun mage talk was fun

 1:38:22.960,1:38:27.520
 and i like i've taken that i've taken 
 that to heart man like i totally get that

 1:38:27.520,1:38:33.920
 mage shock was a lot of freaking fun um be like 
 hey future carvers makes seven figures so uh don't

 1:38:33.920,1:38:38.000
 worry i'm gonna go chase that 
 you know what's fun liquidity

 1:38:41.040,1:38:45.360
 you know it's fun buying a thousand 
 dollar nfts on my cat that's right

 1:38:47.200,1:38:53.600
 just just you know by buying a 
 bunch of pixel kitties no big deal

 1:38:53.600,1:38:58.720
 just because i can't maybe no but actually 
 as i'm thinking it through like maybe that

 1:38:58.720,1:39:06.720
 is a like a podcast thesis that you could really 
 run with is like you know um you know that that

 1:39:06.720,1:39:14.000
 fun comedy angle with some you know content 
 thrown in there right like yeah it's the biggest

 1:39:14.720,1:39:19.840
 it's the biggest thing that uh i i think is 
 missing in this place it's probably the thing that

 1:39:19.840,1:39:26.080
 morning brew has sort of attempted to do 
 um in the newsletter space is like have

 1:39:26.960,1:39:33.920
 have a personality and i wouldn't even say it 
 has to be humor like just have a personality

 1:39:33.920,1:39:41.920
 and i think that's what lacks a lot is is 
 just likable people who are you know who

 1:39:43.440,1:39:47.200
 i don't know they may you may not have been 
 i don't know maybe likable is the wrong word

 1:39:47.200,1:39:52.160
 like people who don't have the wrong word it's 
 definitely the wrong word and i'm thinking about

 1:39:52.160,1:39:59.200
 that okay i'm a lot of people don't like me i 
 get that um but there's and and i know i mean

 1:39:59.200,1:40:05.040
 like i don't even like you so this is it helps 
 it helps to be honest in this in this situation

 1:40:05.600,1:40:11.600
 um but but there's something that's endearing 
 that you sort of like grow to love the character

 1:40:11.600,1:40:18.640
 of the person that you listen to over a long 
 period of time and uh i i've listened to this

 1:40:18.640,1:40:25.440
 you know movie podcast for a decade now called the 
 film cast um previously called the slash film cast

 1:40:25.440,1:40:29.520
 and they have like sticks and they have 
 tropes and they have their own in jokes and

 1:40:30.480,1:40:37.440
 i like i'm gonna hear them say the same thing 
 every episode like there's just it's kind of

 1:40:37.440,1:40:42.480
 endearing and it's like it's the it's your warm 
 cup of coffee it's like it's the thing that

 1:40:42.480,1:40:49.280
 like it it's what makes that show that show that 
 could never be done by anyone else and um and and

 1:40:49.280,1:40:53.440
 they're funny i i don't but i wouldn't describe 
 it as a comedy podcast they're funny but i

 1:40:54.160,1:40:58.480
 uh it just has to have a personality and 
 i think that's what's lacking so much

 1:41:00.640,1:41:05.280
 if you even put one ounce of thought or 
 effort into giving your piece of media some

 1:41:05.280,1:41:10.640
 personality or a voice like apparently you can 
 sell that for you know hundreds of millions of

 1:41:10.640,1:41:17.600
 dollars to business insider like if it's like 
 a lot of a lot of morning brews personality is

 1:41:17.600,1:41:24.800
 is you know is is kind of fun and quippy 
 and a little and and you know but it's it's

 1:41:24.800,1:41:31.200
 it's not like they're they're not writing you 
 know the next great american you know comedy album

 1:41:31.200,1:41:37.360
 they're it's a pun in a headline for crying out 
 loud it's almost like lowest effort possible

 1:41:38.640,1:41:45.600
 so anyway what's going on with commerce hero these 
 days brother chugging along man chugging along

 1:41:45.600,1:41:54.000
 posting the tweets uh you know um getting posted 
 making these jobs doing the stuff um i've i've

 1:41:54.000,1:42:00.320
 actually been thinking about maybe pivoting into 
 like bitcoin with like recruiting and hiring stuff

 1:42:00.320,1:42:03.520
 i'll tell you right now do you know 
 what's missing in the ecosystem

 1:42:04.400,1:42:07.840
 is is blockchain developers and 
 web three developers people need

 1:42:08.960,1:42:15.360
 right folks that can that can develop on chain 
 uh technologies ethereum in particular um smart

 1:42:15.360,1:42:24.560
 contract developers it's it's desperately needed 
 and um and you owe me money for that idea so um

 1:42:25.600,1:42:34.080
 tm i just i just trademarked it so okay i've done 
 a little bit of kind of research into into it and

 1:42:34.080,1:42:39.840
 it feels but more than anything i think you know 
 you have to really genuinely be interested in a

 1:42:39.840,1:42:47.600
 space to really make connections network really 
 kind of really kind of get to know authentically

 1:42:48.240,1:42:52.480
 the community in order to in order to be able to 
 make good connections and stuff so that just takes

 1:42:52.480,1:42:58.160
 a lot of time and a lot of interest and dedication 
 stuff but i'm finding myself interested in now who

 1:42:58.160,1:43:03.120
 knows how long that'll last i mean you know 
 i am it might last like three more weeks um

 1:43:03.120,1:43:09.040
 but it's it's just fun but that's what makes you 
 so successful is like your ability to get like

 1:43:09.680,1:43:17.520
 hyper uh you know hyper focused on a particular 
 thing yes deep on it yeah yeah so i'm just i'm

 1:43:17.520,1:43:22.640
 just hoping we love you for that thank you 
 i just hope that sticks around because it's

 1:43:22.640,1:43:26.000
 it's fun you know it's fun when you're excited 
 about something and you're learning and

 1:43:27.120,1:43:32.800
 um yeah so that's uh that's been cool 
 man i'm not going to get too much into

 1:43:32.800,1:43:36.480
 the bitcoin stuff because i know it's going to 
 drive everybody great magento community hates

 1:43:36.480,1:43:43.200
 bitcoin by the way like by and large they're 
 either not at all interested or actively hated

 1:43:43.200,1:43:50.800
 99.9 which is like okay that it is what it is 
 it's just like i like the magento community by and

 1:43:50.800,1:43:58.480
 large hates bitcoin more than like you could pick 
 a demographic like grandparents over 70 years old

 1:43:58.480,1:44:04.960
 like they probably only like 96 dislike 
 bitcoin and the magenta community it's 99

 1:44:04.960,1:44:10.160
 i don't know i don't know why but that's you 
 know that's the uh that's the response i've

 1:44:10.160,1:44:16.800
 gotten so far so i'm going to leave it alone 
 i'm going to even be yep yeah i gotcha um

 1:44:16.800,1:44:23.440
 uh uh well we we don't need to talk anymore about 
 it but i i will say imagine if you had bought

 1:44:23.440,1:44:29.200
 into bitcoin when we first talked about it and 
 imagine if i hadn't lost my bitcoin paper wallet

 1:44:31.040,1:44:40.400
 back in 2016 um yeah it hurts bad hurts real 
 bad you got it does it's real he does it's yeah

 1:44:40.400,1:44:46.800
 it's like you gotta just hi you know it's it's 
 you gotta just not replay the past you know and

 1:44:46.800,1:44:52.000
 i've done some calculations believe you me i look 
 it up i go back to that date what if i put money

 1:44:52.000,1:44:58.640
 in there oh yeah okay but um but anyway i mean 
 if you could run if you had like i'll i'll tell

 1:44:58.640,1:45:08.800
 you right now the the very first um mention of 
 bitcoin on mage talk was episode six um whoa

 1:45:10.320,1:45:17.760
 and and uh hold on i'll tell you right now uh 
 it was in the show notes episode six october

 1:45:17.760,1:45:30.160
 6th 2014 kaelyn and it says um well let me tell 
 you let me tell you all the all the things here um

 1:45:32.640,1:45:34.320
 so this is what we're talking about at the time

 1:45:35.760,1:45:46.000
 uh one it says uh it seems crazy to kailyn 
 more magenta stores aren't sold with solid

 1:45:46.000,1:45:50.960
 specialized magento hosting and kailyn 
 is having a great experience with senasi

 1:45:54.240,1:46:01.920
 um and then it says the jamaican bobsled team 
 from the winter olympics this year were funded

 1:46:01.920,1:46:09.520
 by dogecoin paypal is now accepting bitcoin 
 phillip is going to buy a carpenter's pencil

 1:46:09.520,1:46:17.600
 at home depot for his five dollars worth of 
 bitcoin via paypal so if you went and looked if

 1:46:17.600,1:46:22.480
 you went and looked is dinner ready all right 
 i'll be right there um if you if you did five

 1:46:22.480,1:46:34.400
 what was five dollars okay five dollars of bitcoin 
 in 2014 would be worth hold on you ready for this

 1:46:37.920,1:46:42.320
 yeah hold on i'm gonna tell you right now 
 it's gonna hurt it's gonna hurt too much um

 1:46:49.600,1:46:55.040
 it says if you yeah if you bought 
 if you yeah it would be worth uh um

 1:46:56.000,1:46:58.560
 where is this calculator 
 why is this taking so long

 1:47:00.720,1:47:01.220
 hold on

 1:47:04.880,1:47:08.960
 bitcoin return calculator i found it this 
 is this is great content we're doing this

 1:47:08.960,1:47:17.680
 right now starting investment five dollars 
 starting date october 6 2014 ending date

 1:47:19.280,1:47:22.400
 calculate i would have hundred 
 dollars right now kaelin

 1:47:23.280,1:47:30.880
 688 dollars and 30 cents that's a lot 
 of moolah for five dollars it's very sad

 1:47:33.040,1:47:33.540
 okay

 1:47:38.560,1:47:44.320
 i will give you some bitcoin i will give you 
 that's true kailyn will i will i will send you

 1:47:44.320,1:47:52.880
 some satoshi's if you step step this far along 
 uh but i hope you have a great time for the

 1:47:52.880,1:47:59.760
 rest of your day for the rest of your life and 
 until the next episode of mage talk in 20 some

 1:48:00.480,1:48:05.200
 months or weeks or years check out future commerce 
 if you're looking for some more consistent content

 1:48:08.720,1:48:09.920
 every week